Meaning of return tickets to London Zone U123*

[NigelH]

I'm planning a journey to London from Reading, returning the following day. I plan to make a stop in Zone 1, then travel to Zone 3 where I will stay the night, then the next day travel to somewhere else in Zone 3 (which plainly I will buy a separate ticket for) and finally back to Reading, and there is a return fare to Zone U123* available. This raises a couple of questions:

1. The information on BR Fares says that it includes one return journey in zones 1-3. Does that have to actually connect with the rail journey, or could it be any two trips within those zones - for example, starting at my destination in Zone 1 (which may be just an undergroiund station)?

2. I read elsewhere on this forum that the "London" part doesn't cover travel to some rail stations in the relevant zones, but only underground and DLR routes. South of the river, most stations (including the one I want to travel to, Lee) are served by rail rather than underground/DLR. Is this defined somewhere, please? If I look up just return fares to Lee from Reading, I get £44.50 for any route and £42.30 for "London not Und", whereas a return to zone U123* is £42.80 for any route, with cheaper options via Staines or Ealing Common/West Acton.

 

[JonathanH]

The 'U' means Underground, but includes DLR, and is intended for a journey to an Underground station in zones 1 to 3. To travel to Lee, or any other National Rail station, a ticket is needed to that named station.

Buying a ticket from Reading to Lee routed + Any Permitted and travelling via Paddington allows a journey on the underground from Paddington, then a journey on Southeastern to Lee from a relevant interchange station.

 

[30907]

Buying a ticket from Reading to Lee routed + Any Permitted and travelling via Paddington allows a journey on the underground from Paddington, then a journey on Southeastern to Lee from a relevant interchange station.

Starting a tube journey with a + ticket can be at any one of these but not elsewhere, finishing is OK intermediately (but reports say TfL staff will dispute this initially!).

If @NigelH would name the other two stations it might be possible to identify the most cost-effective option (is the second Zone 3 station on a valid NR route from Lee?). All things being equal, though, using NR from Charing X/Waterloo E/London Br is likely to be best overall.

 

[NigelH]

Starting a tube journey with a + ticket can be at any one of these but not elsewhere, finishing is OK intermediately (but reports say TfL staff will dispute this initially!).

If @NigelH would name the other two stations it might be possible to identify the most cost-effective option (is the second Zone 3 station on a valid NR route from Lee?). All things being equal, though, using NR from Charing X/Waterloo E/London Br is likely to be best overall.

Thanks for the prompt and helpful replies. The other two stations are Barbican and Highgate, so I doubt there's likely to be anything better than either simply buying a return to Paddington and using contactless for the rest, or buying a return to U123* and using it from Paddington to Barbican and Highgate to Paddington, both of which are certainly OK (if a bit wasteful). It does seem crazy that you can buy a ticket that includes unlimited travel within a zone (i.e. a travelcard) that's valid for all means of transport, but not one for a single (or return*) that's similarly valid. (* - when not coming back from the same station).

I did see this in another thread, though:

"There are a fair number of National Rail routes which are interavailable with Underground tickets, including London Overground orbital routes, as well as the Crossrail and Thameslink cores, most of the stations on the northern side of the Victoria line to the relevant London terminus, Stratford to Liverpool Street and so forth. But outside of these 'easements' an Underground and DLR Zones 1-3 ticket is, well, only valid on the Underground and DLR."

and wondered whether this might apply, or if there is a list somewhere of these "easements", since I can't see anything on the TfL site.

 

[30907]

1. You are right that National Rail doesn't generally do what the airlines would call open-jaw tickets, certainly not for stations on opposite sides of London - arguably it's time that the distinction between LUL and NR was abolished for this purpose, but I can't detect enthusiasm in HM Treasury for losing revenue

2. The interavailable routes NR/LUL are all pretty obvious, and Highgate isn't near any mainline station to qualify.

3. Off the top of my head, the suggested ticket to Lee would cover you for:
Paddington to Farringdon then City TL to Lee. It's not far from Barbican to City TL!
(I don't think you would be allowed to use your + from or to Highgate though, so you wouldn't save much compared with contactless.)

4. You could get to Lewisham via DLR, then bus to Lee (or New Cross via Overground, then 2 buses or 1 train), but even with Elizabeth Line to Whitechapel/Canary Wharf it wouldn't be that quick.

 

[JonathanH]

If travelling off-peak from Reading and not using a railcard, it may be better to use Contactless all the way from Reading to Barbican for virtue of single leg pricing. Farringdon Crossrail station has a Barbican exit (and lift to Barbican station).

Reading to Barbican is £15.70 one-way off-peak (£32.10 from 0630 to 0930 weekdays)
Barbican to Highgate is £3.00 one-way off-peak (£3.70 from 0630 to 0930 / 1600 to 1900 weekdays)
Highgate to Lee is £5.20 one-way off-peak (£6.30 from 0630 to 0930 / 1600 to 1900 weekdays)
Lee to Reading is £15.60 one-way off-peak (£32.70 from 0630 to 0930 / 1600 to 1900 weekdays)

That is cheaper than the £44.50 / £42.80 mentioned in the first post, so not really worth using the 'paper' ticket.

 

[NigelH]

1. You are right that National Rail doesn't generally do what the airlines would call open-jaw tickets, certainly not for stations on opposite sides of London - arguably it's time that the distinction between LUL and NR was abolished for this purpose, but I can't detect enthusiasm in HM Treasury for losing revenue

2. The interavailable routes NR/LUL are all pretty obvious, and Highgate isn't near any mainline station to qualify.

3. Off the top of my head, the suggested ticket to Lee would cover you for:
Paddington to Farringdon then City TL to Lee. It's not far from Barbican to City TL!
(I don't think you would be allowed to use your + from or to Highgate though, so you wouldn't save much compared with contactless.)

4. You could get to Lewisham via DLR, then bus to Lee (or New Cross via Overground, then 2 buses or 1 train), but even with Elizabeth Line to Whitechapel/Canary Wharf it wouldn't be that quick.

Thanks for the detailed suggestions, but I'm slightly confused. NR wouldn't issue a ticket for (for example) Reading-Lee and Orpington-Reading, where all are NR stations, but a ticket from Reading to London U123* is surely issued as two paper tickets, and therefore even though it says "one return journey by underground/DLR" I can't see a problem in using the outward one to one underground station and the return one back from a different one in that the barriers would not be able to match the two up, provided of course that all travel is on the underground/DLR (or presumably Thameslink or the Elizabeth Line?) and within the relevant zones. Incidentally, as the Elizabeth Line and Thameslink are not LUL, I wonder whether both "underground" and "not underground" tickets are valid on them??

As I have a railcard, using contactless throughout isn't an attractive alternative for me: using a Reading-Zone U123* ticket for Reading-Barbican, contactless Barbican-Lee and Lee-Highgate, then the return part of the ticket, costs £38-60 (or even less if I don't change from LUL to NR at London Bridge, Waterloo, Waterloo East, Cannon Street, Victoria, Charing Cross or Blackfriars on the leg from Barbican).

 

[Haywain]

I can't see a problem in using the outward one to one underground station and the return one back from a different one in that the barriers would not be able to match the two up,

That's true, as long as they are both Underground stations - Thameslink is purely National Rail outside of the West Hampstead/Finsbury Park to London Bridge/Elephant & Castle section and the Elizabeth line is not supposed to be NR west of Paddington or east of Stratford.

Incidentally, as the Elizabeth Line and Thameslink are not LUL, I wonder whether both "underground" and "not underground" tickets are valid on them??

That might depend on the actual tickets and the journey, but the central section of the Elizabeth line is considered, by TfL, to be 'underground'.

 

[JonathanH]

NR wouldn't issue a ticket for (for example) Reading-Lee and Orpington-Reading, where all are NR stations, but a ticket from Reading to London U123* is surely issued as two paper tickets, and therefore even though it says "one return journey by underground/DLR" I can't see a problem in using the outward one to one underground station and the return one back from a different one in that the barriers would not be able to match the two up, provided of course that all travel is on the underground/DLR (or presumably Thameslink or the Elizabeth Line?) and within the relevant zones.

Yes, the decision was taken in BR days not to issue tickets to specific underground stations which comes with the advantage of being able to use a different one in each direction.

In contrast, tickets to National Rail stations are issued to specific stations, other than where there are multiple central termini / destination stations. The fact that they are in London is neither here nor there.