Memories of Broad Street

farleigh

Member
Joined
1 Nov 2016
Messages
1,023
Certainly looks like it was! Not one of the better known 80s music videos there so that's a good find. Complete with an Edmondson ticket in hand.

Ironic given the song title that trains departing Broad Street would not have got the band 'Out of London' however, just sound to SW London...
:D
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

ChiefPlanner

Established Member
Joined
6 Sep 2011
Messages
6,885
Location
Herts
An old friend of mine has lived in Richmond pretty much all his life, and doesn’t regard himself as a Londoner at all…

Richmond is a superb place and I suppose a bit of a "bubble" compared to the thrust and so on of many other parts of London and the SE.

I enjoyed reading this thread , and a good mate has a mass of slides (yes - remember them !) of the last days of Broad St when many old posters etc survived. I ran the successor NLL line when it went North Woolwich - Richmond and the geographical and social contrasts were amazing - even in the 1990's . the NLL went from strength to strength - partly due to the vision of the GLC and planners , who realised that Broad St , though appealing to lovers of the quaint and run down , was "yesterdays railway" - which it had been from about 1920 really. They focused on links to Stratford and beyond to eventual good effect.

Older staff (drivers especially) - in my day , waxed lyrical about working it - they seemed to enjoy the city / bucolic charm compared to the bustle of the 313 NLL of my day.
 

thesignalman

Member
Joined
9 Jan 2012
Messages
42
who realised that Broad St , though appealing to lovers of the quaint and run down , was "yesterdays railway" - which it had been from about 1920 really. They focused on links to Stratford and beyond to eventual good effect.
I didn't, and still don't, see it like that.

The reduction of services and eventual abandonment of Broad Street station gave huge financial benefit by allowing the land to be developed, but completely killed the commuter traffic from the Watford New Line stations to the City which were well-filled six-car services in the early 1980s. The concession of diverting what eventually became one three-car train per day (the first to be cancelled at times of shortages) the long and slow way round via the pointlessly-built Graham Road Curve into Liverpool Street was a rather pathetic nod towards the demand. Commuters found it more sensible to travel via Euston and the Circle Line after their direct service had been well and truly ruined.
 
Joined
7 Nov 2013
Messages
919
Location
Where my keyboard has no £ key
Yes - I visited at that time:

. . . . . . This is the bustling concourse a few months before closure:
View attachment 100605
This picture reminded me of my own Broad Street recollection.

In the late 1970s, or very early 80s, I regularly travelled into Liverpool Street when the main Cambridge service went that way (and LST was still a sooty, confusing rabbit warren of a place - but that's a different story).

If I was in no particular rush, I would catch a no. 9 or 11 bus rather than the Circle Line for my onward journey - both buses departing from the front of Broad Street station at that time.

On one occasion I did pop into Broad Street to "have a quick look".

My memory's hazy, but I recall the station was deserted, with not a single passenger, staff member or even train to be seen. It was before the NLL trains were diverted to Stratford, but probably a Saturday afternoon, which goes half way to explaining the church-like quietness. It felt like being in a closed railway station where someone had forgotten to lock the gate.

Despite needing a lick of paint, I remember thinking the concourse still looked very neat, tidy and well-swept. No litter, no junk stacked in corners, no surplus railway paraphernalia lying around or vandalism, which you'd find in genuinely abandoned stations.

I regret not making the effort to take a spin around the old NLL in a Class 501 during that era, as I have a liking for quirky, neglected corners of the railway. Today's bright, busy, gentrified LO route is a much less interesting world.
 
Joined
11 Jan 2015
Messages
410
The 1930s were, broadly, fine for the south and, equally broadly, less than fine for the north, particularly areas of mining and heavy industry which were already on their way down from the high point of 1913. New industries such as car manufacture (Ford at Dagenham), domestic appliances (Hoover in West London) and safety razors (Gillette in Isleworth) supported less by the railways and more by the new arterial roads were the growth industries of the inter-war period. Not for this thread, but even then the railways were losing trade to roads.
 

ChiefPlanner

Established Member
Joined
6 Sep 2011
Messages
6,885
Location
Herts
The 1930s were, broadly, fine for the south and, equally broadly, less than fine for the north, particularly areas of mining and heavy industry which were already on their way down from the high point of 1913. New industries such as car manufacture (Ford at Dagenham), domestic appliances (Hoover in West London) and safety razors (Gillette in Isleworth) supported less by the railways and more by the new arterial roads were the growth industries of the inter-war period. Not for this thread, but even then the railways were losing trade to roads.

Yes - and the incredible growth of the new suburbs (spurred by ready sources of money via building societies and a huge pool of labour) , which made the crowded Victorian suburbs much less attractive for those with even modest incomes and jobs

The work and home dynamics had a massive effect on routes like the North London , which although electrified by the LNWR , had a fairly unattractive catchment area , which obviously affected the likes of Broad Street. Gentrification really kicked off in the 1960's , when ironically some of the 1930's suburbs were sometimes looking a bit weary.
 

frodshamfella

Established Member
Joined
25 Sep 2010
Messages
1,346
Location
Frodsham
How popular were the Broad Street to Watford services does anyone know ?

This picture reminded me of my own Broad Street recollection.

In the late 1970s, or very early 80s, I regularly travelled into Liverpool Street when the main Cambridge service went that way (and LST was still a sooty, confusing rabbit warren of a place - but that's a different story).

If I was in no particular rush, I would catch a no. 9 or 11 bus rather than the Circle Line for my onward journey - both buses departing from the front of Broad Street station at that time.

On one occasion I did pop into Broad Street to "have a quick look".

My memory's hazy, but I recall the station was deserted, with not a single passenger, staff member or even train to be seen. It was before the NLL trains were diverted to Stratford, but probably a Saturday afternoon, which goes half way to explaining the church-like quietness. It felt like being in a closed railway station where someone had forgotten to lock the gate.

Despite needing a lick of paint, I remember thinking the concourse still looked very neat, tidy and well-swept. No litter, no junk stacked in corners, no surplus railway paraphernalia lying around or vandalism, which you'd find in genuinely abandoned stations.

I regret not making the effort to take a spin around the old NLL in a Class 501 during that era, as I have a liking for quirky, neglected corners of the railway. Today's bright, busy, gentrified LO route is a much less interesting world.

Totally agree, quirky is interesting and disappearing fast. My first recollection was travelling from Broad Street to Gunnersbury on a Saturday to see a friend. I went this way rather than take the District Line, so glad I did. The Station was pretty much deserted from what I can recall, it wasn't what I expected from a London terminus.
 

ChiefPlanner

Established Member
Joined
6 Sep 2011
Messages
6,885
Location
Herts
One of my good friends was Traffic Assistant at Willesden in this period and he had the delights of the DC and a section of the NLL as his remit. Tough job but he enjoyed it , so will ask him about loadings.

Certainly - the 3 tph all day Watford - Euston was reduced to 2 tph in the peak , to allow more slots for services to /off the NLL.
 

Gloster

Established Member
Joined
4 Sep 2020
Messages
2,649
Location
Up the creek
One of my good friends was Traffic Assistant at Willesden in this period and he had the delights of the DC and a section of the NLL as his remit. Tough job but he enjoyed it , so will ask him about loadings.

Certainly - the 3 tph all day Watford - Euston was reduced to 2 tph in the peak , to allow more slots for services to /off the NLL.
And there were also the Bakerloos that ran through to Stonebridge Park, Harrow or Watford, which I think were peak only in those days (mid-1980s), with the possible exception of a few to Stonebridge Park that were really stock movements. Stonebridge Park was not a place to be enjoyed by a trainload of passengers on a wet evening.
 

frodshamfella

Established Member
Joined
25 Sep 2010
Messages
1,346
Location
Frodsham
Where else could you reach from Broad Street, apart from Richmond and Watford, in the not too distant past ?
 

alholmes

Member
Joined
4 Jun 2012
Messages
56
Location
London E3
Where else could you reach from Broad Street, apart from Richmond and Watford, in the not too distant past ?
Until 1976 trains would run in the peak hours to/from the Great Northern. Mostly only as far as Hertford North or Welwyn Garden City, but a small number beyond to Hitchin. But after they finished it was just the services to Richmond and Watford.
 

NorthKent1989

Established Member
Joined
13 May 2017
Messages
1,484
I get the feeling that Holborn Viaduct was South London’s answer to Broad Street.

Both mainly were terminals for suburban services; Broad Street to Richmond and Watford, and HV to Wimbledon, Sutton, Croydon, Sevenoaks and Dartford via the Bexleyheath line and the Sidcup line occasionally (there were never any HV services to and from the Woolwich line to my knowledge)

Both had rather strange, orbital services, Broad Street to Richmond via North London and Holborn Viaduct to Victoria via Herne Hill, Wimbledon, Sutton, Croydon, Crystal Palace and Clapham Junction.
 

frodshamfella

Established Member
Joined
25 Sep 2010
Messages
1,346
Location
Frodsham
I get the feeling that Holborn Viaduct was South London’s answer to Broad Street.

Both mainly were terminals for suburban services; Broad Street to Richmond and Watford, and HV to Wimbledon, Sutton, Croydon, Sevenoaks and Dartford via the Bexleyheath line and the Sidcup line occasionally (there were never any HV services to and from the Woolwich line to my knowledge)

Both had rather strange, orbital services, Broad Street to Richmond via North London and Holborn Viaduct to Victoria via Herne Hill, Wimbledon, Sutton, Croydon, Crystal Palace and Clapham Junction.

I thought HV had the odd peak hour service deeper into Kent, some years back. But yes agree HV had a kind of forgotten air to it. I travelled from Bexleyheath to HV sometimes, always seemed a strange ( and slower route ) into London.

The other odd thing about the Broad Street line is that is was 3rd rail which correct me if i'm wrong only exists from London south of the Thames, forgetting The Underground.
 

delt1c

Established Member
Joined
4 Apr 2008
Messages
1,827
This picture reminded me of my own Broad Street recollection.

In the late 1970s, or very early 80s, I regularly travelled into Liverpool Street when the main Cambridge service went that way (and LST was still a sooty, confusing rabbit warren of a place - but that's a different story).

If I was in no particular rush, I would catch a no. 9 or 11 bus rather than the Circle Line for my onward journey - both buses departing from the front of Broad Street station at that time.

On one occasion I did pop into Broad Street to "have a quick look".

My memory's hazy, but I recall the station was deserted, with not a single passenger, staff member or even train to be seen. It was before the NLL trains were diverted to Stratford, but probably a Saturday afternoon, which goes half way to explaining the church-like quietness. It felt like being in a closed railway station where someone had forgotten to lock the gate.

Despite needing a lick of paint, I remember thinking the concourse still looked very neat, tidy and well-swept. No litter, no junk stacked in corners, no surplus railway paraphernalia lying around or vandalism, which you'd find in genuinely abandoned stations.

I regret not making the effort to take a spin around the old NLL in a Class 501 during that era, as I have a liking for quirky, neglected corners of the railway. Today's bright, busy, gentrified LO route is a much less interesting world.
You probably travelled on my bus as i worked the 9 &11 in the early 80’s
 

NorthKent1989

Established Member
Joined
13 May 2017
Messages
1,484
I thought HV had the odd peak hour service deeper into Kent, some years back. But yes agree HV had a kind of forgotten air to it. I travelled from Bexleyheath to HV sometimes, always seemed a strange ( and slower route ) into London.

The other odd thing about the Broad Street line is that is was 3rd rail which correct me if i'm wrong only exists from London south of the Thames, forgetting The Underground.

There were peak flow Kent Mainline services that ran either via Catford or Herne Hill, I think these were slower and called at more stops than the ones that served Victoria.
 

Revaulx

Member
Joined
17 Sep 2019
Messages
314
Location
Saddleworth
The section headed Service Reductions here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_501
suggests that the ex-LNW and NLR services were well in decline long before Broad Street closed. 102 3-car LNW and LMS DC units were replaced by 57 501s, of which only 45 remained in service by 1976.

The cutting back of the Bakerloo to Queens Park without (as far as I can tell) an increase in the service into Euston, plus the closure of the Ricky and Croxley branches, is further evidence of the decline. I wonder why this was?
 

ChiefPlanner

Established Member
Joined
6 Sep 2011
Messages
6,885
Location
Herts
Where else could you reach from Broad Street, apart from Richmond and Watford, in the not too distant past ?

Croxley Green , Bushey - (empty to depot from there) , and of course a very thin service to Rickmansworth (Church St)

Course routings could vary - via the City Loop from the DC at Willesden Low Level "upstairs" - or of course via Primrose Hill.

The section headed Service Reductions here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_501
suggests that the ex-LNW and NLR services were well in decline long before Broad Street closed. 102 3-car LNW and LMS DC units were replaced by 57 501s, of which only 45 remained in service by 1976.

The cutting back of the Bakerloo to Queens Park without (as far as I can tell) an increase in the service into Euston, plus the closure of the Ricky and Croxley branches, is further evidence of the decline. I wonder why this was?

As someone once said - the AC electrification "did" for the DC , - but there were population changes in the suburbs as well , as previously mentioned.

Remember , associated LT lines had the same issue - the Met never really used the A stock properly , ditto the Northern. The 1970's was not a great time for London suburban railways - and if anything the early 1980's were worse - as population reached an all time low. Industry moved out , office jobs ditto (who remembers the Location of Offices Bureau which advertised on the tube - encouraging firms to shift to Harlow or similar)
 

Revaulx

Member
Joined
17 Sep 2019
Messages
314
Location
Saddleworth
Croxley Green , Bushey - (empty to depot from there) , and of course a very thin service to Rickmansworth (Church St)

Course routings could vary - via the City Loop from the DC at Willesden Low Level "upstairs" - or of course via Primrose Hill.



As someone once said - the AC electrification "did" for the DC , - but there were population changes in the suburbs as well , as previously mentioned.

Remember , associated LT lines had the same issue - the Met never really used the A stock properly , ditto the Northern. The 1970's was not a great time for London suburban railways - and if anything the early 1980's were worse - as population reached an all time low. Industry moved out , office jobs ditto (who remembers the Location of Offices Bureau which advertised on the tube - encouraging firms to shift to Harlow or similar)
Oh definitely - the heady days of the London I first knew in the Swinging Sixties seemed to be in terminal decline a decade later, and when given an opportunity to reclocate with my job in 1983/84 I turned it down as the rate of decline seemed to be accelerating.

The decline on the DC lines seemed to pre-date all of that though, and didn't seem to be replicated elsewhere on the London suburban network; at least not to the same extent,
 

Taunton

Established Member
Joined
1 Aug 2013
Messages
6,680
There's a belief that London has always needed public transport for the centre - not wholly true. When I first came here in 1983 both myself and many in the office drove pretty much everywhere. Used the tube a bit, but only if convenient. Office round the back of Liverpool Street. I drove in daily, so did others from Ongar, Maidstone, etc, one even drove from Camden Town. It had a onetime loading dock at the back we stuffed all the cars in. Thought nothing of all heading on to Hampstead or even Covent Garden for the evening, and finding street parking.
 
Joined
7 Nov 2013
Messages
919
Location
Where my keyboard has no £ key
How popular were the Broad Street to Watford services does anyone know ?
Not sure about how popular in the sense of not getting a seat, but I've seen mention of Broad St/Watford trains being formed of 6-car Class 501s for the busiest parts of the peaks.

Interestingly, in the mid-1960s (just 20 years before the demolition men moved in at Broad St) the peak period Broad St/Watfords ran around every 15 mins, shoehorned in between the all-day 20-minute clock-face Broad St/Richmond service and the 20-minute frequency Euston/Watfords - plus the Bakerloo trains north of Queen's Park.

In the 1965 timetable roughly half of the peak Broad St/Watfords seemed to run via Primrose Hill and about half via Hampstead Heath. This seems to have changed to everything routed via Primrose Hill by the early 1970s.
Where else could you reach from Broad Street, apart from Richmond and Watford, in the not too distant past ?
The 1965 TT also had trains from Tring at 07:48 and 08:40 to Broad Street (City arrivals at 09:03 & 09:48) with return departures to Tring at 17:18 and 18:05 from Broad Street.

Of course, the Tring/Broad Street trains disappeared following AC electrification on the southern WCML.

There are lots of photos of the Class 501s with their characteristic two-character headcodes - inevitably showing either B1, B2 or B4.

A thread on District Dave's website forum gives the key to all the route codes for the DC trains, including some rare options.
District Dave's website said:
The 1965 WTT . . . .
EUSTON AND………………..Down……..Up
Watford..........................................1...............1
Willesden Jcn New Station............-...............1

BROAD ST AND
Watford via Queens Park...............2..............2
Watford via Hampstead Heath.......3..............3
Richmond.......................................4..............4
Willesden Jcn High Level..............5..............4
Willesden Jcn New Station............6..............2
Harrow & Willesden......................7..............2
Croxley Green................................9..............2

RICHMOND AND
Willesden Jcn High Level..............4..............4

WATFORD JUNCTION AND
Harrow & Wealdstone....................-..............7
Croxley Green................................9..............9

EMPTY TRAINS TO
Dalston Sidings..............................X..............X
Croxley Green Shed.......................Y..............Y
Stonebridge Park Shed...................Z...............Z
 
Last edited:

WesternLancer

Established Member
Joined
12 Apr 2019
Messages
3,885
There's a belief that London has always needed public transport for the centre - not wholly true. When I first came here in 1983 both myself and many in the office drove pretty much everywhere. Used the tube a bit, but only if convenient. Office round the back of Liverpool Street. I drove in daily, so did others from Ongar, Maidstone, etc, one even drove from Camden Town. It had a onetime loading dock at the back we stuffed all the cars in. Thought nothing of all heading on to Hampstead or even Covent Garden for the evening, and finding street parking.
V interesting Taunton, and backed up of course by older images one sees with plenty of private 'every day driver' cars in shots of the central area. But I guess ref your office building, there must have been plenty of people who did not do that - either as not had a car or not wanted to drive in or lived further out so would have been more time consuming. How many as a percentage of your colleagues int he building would have driven would you guess at?
 

ChiefPlanner

Established Member
Joined
6 Sep 2011
Messages
6,885
Location
Herts

The biggest flow was interchange at Queen’s Park, the B1s and B2s were sixes in the peak, and the latter made peak additional capacity from Camden Road in (B4s strictly threes). The B2s were less heavily loaded than the B1s, and, as long as you didn’t want to be first off at Euston, you’d never lack a seat on them.


Observations from a previous manager , as mentioned above.

V interesting Taunton, and backed up of course by older images one sees with plenty of private 'every day driver' cars in shots of the central area. But I guess ref your office building, there must have been plenty of people who did not do that - either as not had a car or not wanted to drive in or lived further out so would have been more time consuming. How many as a percentage of your colleagues int he building would have driven would you guess at?

Parking restrictions slowly came in the 1960's , a friends father drove each day from Ruislip to Drury Lane for work. Not uncommon.
 

Taunton

Established Member
Joined
1 Aug 2013
Messages
6,680
The office was a typical 1960s bombsite-replacement 8-storey block, now replaced again by a City high-rise. We all (well, the professional staff) had company cars, which doubtless made a difference. Not infrequently we would suddenly need to head off to another non-City location within the day. If I came back with a client in the day with no spaces left there was a multi-storey over the road, cost was not ruinous.

Colleague in a Victoria office had no parking there, lived in Godstone (the town, which is nowhere near the eponymous station), drove daily to Brixton, parked in a side street all day, last bit on the Victoria Line. Parking restrictions in centre only, up to the 1990s, all came off at 6.30pm everywhere and at weekends, whereupon it was free range. Living in Canary Wharf, if shopping in Oxford Street would drive there on Saturdays. It's one thing to go by yourself, different matter with family, small children and pushchair. I guess Broad Street never had lifts down to the ground.

Probably about 50-50 between driving and rail commuting. You could have both a company car and a season ticket loan (a Londonism which those from elsewhere may not know). The secretarial staff all commuted. Many lived down the GE/LT&S lines, almost all beyond London. We had a secretarial Temp who commuted all the way from Reading on the 1980s coach service into the City, sometimes 2 hours each way, but cheaper than rail.
 

WesternLancer

Established Member
Joined
12 Apr 2019
Messages
3,885
The biggest flow was interchange at Queen’s Park, the B1s and B2s were sixes in the peak, and the latter made peak additional capacity from Camden Road in (B4s strictly threes). The B2s were less heavily loaded than the B1s, and, as long as you didn’t want to be first off at Euston, you’d never lack a seat on them.

Observations from a previous manager , as mentioned above.



Parking restrictions slowly came in the 1960's , a friends father drove each day from Ruislip to Drury Lane for work. Not uncommon.
Yes, I guess it's not just parking restrictions though, it's the volume of cars and the space available for them to park in. Parking restrictions mainly being to ration space (contrary to popular belief) or to actively prevent (as would be pertinent in this case) office workers parking near shops all day, but not using the shops, so that visitors to shops can not get to the shops, and thus retailers custom going down - hence a change to shorter time for which you can park (and payment for it because that is needed to fund the enforcement of the short stay rule), and the benefit to traffic reduction that comes from creating a system that means a percentage of the traffic is not people driving round and round looking for a parking space.

The office was a typical 1960s bombsite-replacement 8-storey block, now replaced again by a City high-rise. We all (well, the professional staff) had company cars, which doubtless made a difference. Not infrequently we would suddenly need to head off to another non-City location within the day. If I came back with a client in the day with no spaces left there was a multi-storey over the road, cost was not ruinous.

Colleague in a Victoria office had no parking there, lived in Godstone (the town, which is nowhere near the eponymous station), drove daily to Brixton, parked in a side street all day, last bit on the Victoria Line. Parking restrictions in centre only, up to the 1990s, all came off at 6.30pm everywhere and at weekends, whereupon it was free range. Living in Canary Wharf, if shopping in Oxford Street would drive there on Saturdays. It's one thing to go by yourself, different matter with family, small children and pushchair. I guess Broad Street never had lifts down to the ground.

Probably about 50-50 between driving and rail commuting. You could have both a company car and a season ticket loan (a Londonism which those from elsewhere may not know). The secretarial staff all commuted. Many lived down the GE/LT&S line, almost all beyond London. We had a secretarial Temp who commuted all the way from Reading on the 1980s coach service into the City, sometimes 2 hours each way, but cheaper than rail.
Thanks for added observations, does give a sense of the difference and the way things have changed / evolved. I'd forgotten about widespread company car access! (never been any beneficiaries of that in my family's jobs which means not at front of my mind - but very good point)
 

Taunton

Established Member
Joined
1 Aug 2013
Messages
6,680
I walked over and into Broad Street just once or twice at lunchtime. Didn't go in on its last day, but did deliberately go over to see the first arrival in Liverpool Street from the Graham Road curve, a single 313 in Platform 1 which looked a bit puny next to all the full length GE trains alongside. Handful of passengers.

I went occasionally to an office in Feltham when there was known disruption in Central London, but it was notably quicker to walk down to Aldgate East and get the District Line to Richmond and change, rather than use Broad Street to do the same.
 

PeterC

Established Member
Joined
29 Sep 2014
Messages
3,284
There's a belief that London has always needed public transport for the centre - not wholly true. When I first came here in 1983 both myself and many in the office drove pretty much everywhere. Used the tube a bit, but only if convenient. Office round the back of Liverpool Street. I drove in daily, so did others from Ongar, Maidstone, etc, one even drove from Camden Town. It had a onetime loading dock at the back we stuffed all the cars in. Thought nothing of all heading on to Hampstead or even Covent Garden for the evening, and finding street parking.
From the east it was the pinch points crossing the Lea that pushed you onto PT unless you worked in the heart of the City.

Once I could drive (1969) I wouldn't dream of using a train at weekends. On street parking was just do easy. To hint at the topic parking near Broad Street could be tri ky with 5 day restrictions in Hackney and 5.5 in the City. You had to know which side of some side streets was in which.
 

Taunton

Established Member
Joined
1 Aug 2013
Messages
6,680
In the days before the JLE, or even the DLR, the most effective way I had to get from Canary Wharf (called "Docklands" then) to the centre was drive up to Bromley-by-Bow on the District, park in a side street, and get the Underground from there.
 

Pigeon

Member
Joined
8 Apr 2015
Messages
425
...creating a system that means a percentage of the traffic is not people driving round and round looking for a parking space.

...creating a system that means a percentage of the traffic is people driving round and round for even longer, trying to find obscure nooks and crannies that were overlooked when the restrictions were made and therefore can still be parked in without exposing yourself to the legalised extortion racket (or, having already found them on previous occasions, driving round and round to find ones not already occupied by other people who have found them too). Also, dropping someone off and then driving round and round the block to wait for them while they "just pop in somewhere for five minutes" and end up taking half an hour over it, and other similar rip-off avoidance stratagems on the same principle.
 

Top