Merseyrail penalty fare for having an e-ticket instead of CCST

[MrJeeves]

Just seen this on Twitter:

A passenger being issued with a penalty fare for having an e-ticket instead of a paper ticket. Merseyrail need to change their ticketing policies to move into the 21st century.

https://twitter.com/rupert_airbear/status/1712390167040753859

Eek!

 

[Farigiraf]

Do we have any info on what part of the network this is on? Merseyrail in the core is essentially a metro so it's understandable just like the tube doesn't have e-tickets, but further out (and by this I mean Chester, E Port, Ormskirk, Southport, Hbolt Lane etc.) this shouldn't be acceptable. Isn't there some National rail law to accept them?
They could have also been on a connecting ticket, eg Manchester to Liverpool stations and decided to go some extra stops from Lime street to James St or Central, where it's understandable that the guard could misunderstand this.

 

[L401CJF]

It's a can of worms - especially with Merseyrails rent-a-thug security staff issuing penalty fares but have little to none fare knowledge.

A good example would be buying a ticket from North Wales to Liverpool - with an itinerary for the TFW Chester to Liverpool service so issued a mobile ticket, however as an any route permitted single/return - which is Valid via Merseyrail regardless whether they like it or not!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I suspect the third level appeal (the independent one) would succeed against such a Penalty Fare, but they really do need to fix this by simply issuing and accepting them and stopping being such a bunch of utter Luddites.

I do wonder if they're worried about potential lost booking office revenue meaning they have to consider closing some quieter ones.

 

[AdamWW]

I suspect the third level appeal (the independent one) would succeed against such a Penalty Fare, but they really do need to fix this by simply issuing and accepting them and stopping being such a bunch of utter Luddites.

If they really did hold a valid e-ticket, yes.

But it's possible that in fact what they had was the confirmation email for a TOD ticket.

 

[fandroid]

Was it an actual Penalty Fare? Merseyrail issue their own £60 and £125 Fixed Penalties that have none of the statutory protections of proper Penalty Fares.

 

[185]

Merseyrail nowadays has become a poor man's tram system, more so with this Metro nonsense slapped on the front of their, erm... LRVs (ahem). A once great real train operator ruined by a once great now terrible PTE and the terrible management at both the PTE & the TOC.

I assume the passenger either had a ticket to collect (TOD) bought on Trainline & didn't collect it, or a ticket with multiple routings that exclude Merseyrail due to their silly e-ticket ban.

Shipley Glen Tramway (source of many memes this week with HS2 north unveiled captions) probably has more connectivity with Britain's Railway than Merseyrailtram.

 

[Haywain]

Was it an actual Penalty Fare?

And was it an actual eTicket, and valid for the journey being made? We have none of this information so are relying on some vague information from social media.

 

[island]

Strongly suspect there was no e-ticket, but an online purchase confirmation for a ToD pickup.

 

[LYuen]

If it states the ticket has to be collected, although it is inconvenient, it is perfectly clear it isn't an e-ticket and travel without a paper ticket will result in a penalty.

 

[Benno]

There are a lot of assumptions that the person in the incident didn’t have a ticket, which may or may not have been the case. The issue here, surely, is that Merseyrail insist you print out tickets purchased from third party retailers such as trainline. Tickets that can be shown as e-tickets in any other operator.

Penalty Fares

Before travel, you must buy your ticket from a ticket office, ticket vending machine or online.

www.merseyrail.org

 

[JaJaWa]

There are a lot of assumptions that the person in the incident didn’t have a ticket, which may or may not have been the case. The issue here, surely, is that Merseyrail insist you print out tickets purchased from third party retailers such as trainline. Tickets that can be shown as e-tickets in any other operator.

Penalty Fares

Before travel, you must buy your ticket from a ticket office, ticket vending machine or online.

www.merseyrail.org

Wow, there it is in writing:

A Penalty Fare may be issued if you:
…

• Do not print a ticket purchased through an online third-party retailer (e.g Trainline) before travelling.

 

[gordonthemoron]

Having recently used a Milton Keynes to Liverpool stations e-ticket, on Merseyrail, between Lime Street and James Street with no issues, I suspect it’s a TOD ticket

 

[zero]

There are a lot of assumptions that the person in the incident didn’t have a ticket, which may or may not have been the case. The issue here, surely, is that Merseyrail insist you print out tickets purchased from third party retailers such as trainline. Tickets that can be shown as e-tickets in any other operator.

Penalty Fares

Before travel, you must buy your ticket from a ticket office, ticket vending machine or online.

www.merseyrail.org

Wow, there it is in writing:

A Penalty Fare may be issued if you:
…

• Do not print a ticket purchased through an online third-party retailer (e.g Trainline) before travelling.

I think this is just intended to refer to ToD tickets

 

[mikeg]

I think this is just intended to refer to ToD tickets

Indeed so it should. However I wouldn't be surprised if the odd bad apple tried to penalty fare someone on an eticket. Of course the fact they can't scan it is Merseyrail's problem, not the passengers and what matters is not the medium but the message. IF for whatever reason an E Ticket is issued for a journey involving Merseyrail, my understanding is they're obliged to accept it.

 

[Watershed]

Indeed so it should. However I wouldn't be surprised if the odd bad apple tried to penalty fare someone on an eticket. Of course the fact they can't scan it is Merseyrail's problem, not the passengers and what matters is not the medium but the message. IF for whatever reason an E Ticket is issued for a journey involving Merseyrail, my understanding is they're obliged to accept it.

There are plenty of journeys for which e-tickets might be issued that have validity on Merseyrail - most journeys from the south, for instance.

 

[AdamWW]

I think this is just intended to refer to ToD tickets

I agree but very sloppily worded if so. Maybe if passengers are expected to get everything right all the time to avoid penalty fares, operators could manage to word things more clearly?

 

[dosxuk]

Having recently used a Milton Keynes to Liverpool stations e-ticket, on Merseyrail, between Lime Street and James Street with no issues, I suspect it’s a TOD ticket

I too have used various "Liverpool Stations" e-tickets in the Merseyrail core over the last 12 months as part of longer journeys and had absolutely zero issues doing so.

 

[Krokodil]

I think this is just intended to refer to ToD tickets

Which is almost certainly what this involves. People failing to print off ToDs for Liverpool happens a lot. The other day I printed off £600 worth of ToDs onboard my train for passengers connecting onto Merseyrail services. Shame I don't get commission on ToDs!

 

[L401CJF]

Which is almost certainly what this involves. People failing to print off ToDs for Liverpool happens a lot. The other day I printed off £600 worth of ToDs onboard my train for passengers connecting onto Merseyrail services. Shame I don't get commission on ToDs!

I agree - Seem to waste so much time entering collection codes etc to issue ToDs for people who have an itinerary involving Merseyrail, when I could be selling tickets to people who havn't paid at all. It is a faff when you have a group of 10 for example all with separate ToDs for Liverpool, having to enter each collection code one by one, and no commission for the effort! Frustrating as a lot of them arn't regulars and don't understand why when they have bought online to save time they arn't issued with a mobile ticket and get given a code. A lot of them don't realise they need printing. I always explain it is because Merseyrail are stuck in the 70s, dont accept mobile tickets, and to ensure if they come again to collect them before travelling (and if no office/machine/conductor then definitely before boarding a Merseyrail service eg collect at Chester) to avoid being stung by a rent-a-thug. It is very outdated system.

 

[AdamWW]

Which is almost certainly what this involves. People failing to print off ToDs for Liverpool happens a lot. The other day I printed off £600 worth of ToDs onboard my train for passengers connecting onto Merseyrail services. Shame I don't get commission on ToDs!

I found Merseyrail's use of the word "printing" for collecting a TOD ticket confusing. But other people are using it in this thread. Is this now a common term for ticket collection and I'm behind the times?

(I realise that the tickets are being printed, but in my mind printing a ticket means doing it on a generic printer, not a ticket machine).

 

[nw1]

Merseyrail nowadays has become a poor man's tram system, more so with this Metro nonsense slapped on the front of their, erm... LRVs (ahem). A once great real train operator ruined by a once great now terrible PTE and the terrible management at both the PTE & the TOC.

Is Metro really such an inaccurate phrase for the system? Granted it's ex-BR so not Metro in the usual sense of the word (planned and built by the host city), but the system to me seems to have strong similarities to other metro systems, in the sense that it covers the urban area and its immediate surroundings. And is that such a bad thing?

 

[Adam Williams]

I found Merseyrail's use of the word "printing" for collecting a TOD ticket confusing. But other people are using it in this thread. Is this now a common term for ticket collection and I'm behind the times?

(I realise that the tickets are being printed, but in my mind printing a ticket means doing it on a generic printer, not a ticket machine).

The spec uses both terms. So a CTR has a "print status" and a "ToD collection date". Retailers use "Printed" internally from what I've seen, e.g. "The customer printed their ToD booking, so the refund was a pain to process".

Printed I think makes sense, because it's not like the ticket was there in the machine ready to collect before you turned up and entered the booking ref.

 

[AdamWW]

The spec uses both terms. So a CTR has a "print status" and a "ToD collection date". Retailers use "Printed" internally from what I've seen, e.g. "The customer printed their ToD booking, so the refund was a pain to process".

Printed I think makes sense, because it's not like the ticket was there in the machine ready to collect before you turned up and entered the booking ref.

Intresting.

I agree that the machine does indeed print it and it's more accurate than to say collecting because as you say it's printed on demand.

It's just that in the past I've only seen it (in customer facing information) described as ticket collection so to me the phrasing on the Merseyrail page is somewhat confusing as it sounds as if they're saying they'll only accept e-tickets if you print them out.

 

[Adam Williams]

Intresting.

I agree that the machine does indeed print it and it's more accurate than to say collecting because as you say it's printed on demand.

It's just that in the past I've only seen it (in customer facing information) described as ticket collection so to me the phrasing on the Merseyrail page is somewhat confusing as it sounds as if they're saying they'll only accept e-tickets if you print them out.

Yeah, that's true. It's probably not a term most customers associate with the operation.

 

[Peakrider]

This story comes up regularly in that esteemed journal the Liverpool Echo, usually with some heart wrenching tale of woe from tearful individuals. BUT even Trainline clearly states before purchase where a ticket begins on Merseyrail (before you even click to purchase, and on a separate screen), states that the ticket must be collected from a Merseyrail ticket office by presenting the code and credit card (as with the machines).
I’ve collected many online tickets from the ticket offices and it’s extremely fast.
Best to avoid buying local Merseyrail tickets online though as National Rail would charge standard single & return fares when frequently a Day Saver or Savaway is much cheaper.
On a separate note I had no issues using my Interrail app based pass on Merseyrail who were the only operator I used to correctly ask to see the individual journey itinerary on the app!

I suspect the third level appeal (the independent one) would succeed against such a Penalty Fare, but they really do need to fix this by simply issuing and accepting them and stopping being such a bunch of utter Luddites.

I do wonder if they're worried about potential lost booking office revenue meaning they have to consider closing some quieter ones.

Good point. Merseyrail ticket offices are (should) be open from 1st to last train. So makes sense to utilise that presence for all the reasons we heard during the English (not Merseyrail) TO closure threat. Merseyrail is all the better for it as is London overground (in terms of
staffing). Both are great ways to travel late at night.