Merseyrail Penalty Fare - No facility to purchase

[L401CJF]

Evening all,

Posting on behalf of a friend. He boarded a Merseyrail service this morning at Overpool station heading for Liverpool. He was doing a bit of train and bus bashing around Liverpool so needed a Merseytravel All Area Saveaway. Overpool is unstaffed and has a TVM. The TVM is capable of selling Merseyrail only day passes, but not the Merseytravel Saveaways despite them being valid here - this due to them being issued on ITSO cards.

I am a guard myself, and it is my understanding that where ticket facilities are unavailable - or dont sell the valid ticket you require - you must pay at the earliest opportunity. In this case he intended to pay at Liverpool Lime Street as he was changing trains there. This is something I have done myself countless times, as I regularly use the same unstaffed station so I cant buy priv rate tickets or saveaways.

Would earliest opportunity mean at your first contact with a ticket office ie Liverpool Lime st for connection, or would it mean get off at the first manned station (Hooton) pay there, then board the next train?

Carlisle enforcement boarded at Eastham Rake checking tickets. My friend explained the situation, they were having none of it, issued him a PFN. They told him he should have bought a single to Liverpool and paid there, to which my friend said that would be pointless as the ticket he is buying covers the journey to Liverpool. He is going to appeal, but I said I'd get some advice for him off you experts first

Anybody got any advice or wording to appeal this?

Cheers

Edit- it was this afternoon not this morning, not that it matters!

 

[nedchester]

Evening all,

Posting on behalf of a friend. He boarded a Merseyrail service this morning at Overpool station heading for Liverpool. He was doing a bit of train and bus bashing around Liverpool so needed a Merseytravel All Area Saveaway. Overpool is unstaffed and has a TVM. The TVM is capable of selling Merseyrail only day passes, but not the Merseytravel Saveaways despite them being valid here - this due to them being issued on ITSO cards.

I am a guard myself, and it is my understanding that where ticket facilities are unavailable - or dont sell the valid ticket you require - you must pay at the earliest opportunity. In this case he intended to pay at Liverpool Lime Street as he was changing trains there. This is something I have done myself countless times, as I regularly use the same unstaffed station so I cant buy priv rate tickets or saveaways.

Would earliest opportunity mean at your first contact with a ticket office ie Liverpool Lime st for connection, or would it mean get off at the first manned station (Hooton) pay there, then board the next train?

Carlisle enforcement boarded at Eastham Rake checking tickets. My friend explained the situation, they were having none of it, issued him a PFN. They told him he should have bought a single to Liverpool and paid there, to which my friend said that would be pointless as the ticket he is buying covers the journey to Liverpool. He is going to appeal, but I said I'd get some advice for him off you experts first

Anybody got any advice or wording to appeal this?

Cheers

I would appeal this as the ticket is not available from Overpool.

I have the same issue as my local station is Capenhurst although I have travelled to Hooton to buy a Saveaway rather than going on to Liverpool as the staff in Liverpool can be awkward.

Of course if you could top up the Walrus ITSO card on line it would be much easier…….

 

[L401CJF]

I would appeal this as the ticket is not available from Overpool.

I have the same issue as my local station is Capenhurst although I have travelled to Hooton to buy a Saveaway rather than going on to Liverpool as the staff in Liverpool can be awkward.

I have also done it at Hooton in the past, but despite them being awkward I would argue its unreasonable to expect a passenger to get off mid journey and arrive in Liverpool 15minutes later because the machine won't issue the correct ticket, surely thats Merseyrails problem and not the passengers!

 

[Snow1964]

I would appeal this as the ticket is not available from Overpool.

I have the same issue as my local station is Capenhurst although I have travelled to Hooton to buy a Saveaway rather than going on to Liverpool as the staff in Liverpool can be awkward.

Of course if you could top up the Walrus ITSO card on line it would be much easier…….

Yes should appeal, but be careful with the wording, ticket is valid to commence the journey from Overpool, but the machine wasn’t selling it, so were aiming to buy ticket at first opportunity.

If you use phrase not available, then somebody (poorly trained or slapdash) might read that as not valid and reject your appeal request.

 

[L401CJF]

Yes should appeal, but be careful with the wording, ticket is valid to commence the journey from Overpool, but the machine wasn’t selling it, so were aiming to buy ticket at first opportunity.

If you use phrase not available, then somebody (poorly trained or slapdash) might read that as not valid and reject your appeal request.

Good advice, I agree with the wording. Cheers.

For what its worth, when he got to Lime Street he did buy the Saveaway and has it as proof that he wasn't intending to evade paying the fare which would also help.

 

[furlong]

When Penalty Fares first came in, he would have had to buy a Permit To Travel. Later the Conditions of Carriage would have required him to purchase a ticket for part of his journey which he would have been able to exchange in part-payment for the desired ticket. Both of those options have largely disappeared and the railway has left a void where it pretends this situation doesn't exist. If you purchase a ticket that allows you to make the first part of your journey, there is no longer any guarantee you will be able to use it as part-payment for the correct ticket. If you don't buy a ticket at all, you may be issued with a Penalty Fare. (Very rarely, there is a poster at a station that covers the situation, perhaps instructing you to use the help-point to obtain permission or allowing you to pay later.)

Of course he should appeal for the reasons discussed, but since the problem is one of the railway's own making which it likes to pretend doesn't occur, don't expect an appeal to succeed unless he can find something in writing that says what he did was encouraged. Or he might need to present a complex legal argument. In short, he should have bought the ticket in advance or else bought a different ticket that was available (and paid more in total).

Saveaway Tickets & Prices | Merseytravel

The Merseytravel Saveaway ticket is a one-day, off-peak ticket for buses, trains and Mersey Ferries.

www.merseytravel.gov.uk

Where can I buy it?

PayPoint stores in Merseyside, Merseytravel Centres and staffed stations in Merseyside.

You are also on shaky ground with PRIV nowadays.

 

[Watershed]

Of course he should appeal for the reasons discussed, but since the problem is one of the railway's own making which it likes to pretend doesn't occur, don't expect an appeal to succeed unless he can find something in writing that says what he did was encouraged. Or he might need to present a complex legal argument. In short, he should have bought the ticket in advance or else bought a different ticket that was available (and paid more in total).

Unfortunately I must concur. There is an ambiguity in the rules at current - whilst it seems perfectly reasonable to board without a ticket, if the ticket you want isn't sold at the station, it's unclear that this is permissible without some form of permission to do so. That permission is clearly given by, for example, Northern's Promise to Pay Notice. Of course that isn't available at other TOCs' stations.

You are also on shaky ground with PRIV nowadays.

Here I would disagree - the instructions for staff travel facilities holders are clear in giving permission to board without a ticket (albeit obtaining a Permit to Travel or Promise to Pay Notice if available) if no ticket office exists, or is open, at your boarding station. But yes, in the absence of such permission, the result would be ambiguous just as in the OP's case.

Back to the OP's case, my advice to them would absolutely be to appeal. There is no harm in doing so; to the contrary, you gain the protection of a bar on being prosecuted. Ultimately, even if all appeals are denied, it is for Merseyrail to bring a claim against the OP (as a civil case in the County Court - noting the bar on prosecution if you appeal). There appears to be no indication that TOCs are interested in doing so.

 

[L401CJF]

When Penalty Fares first came in, he would have had to buy a Permit To Travel. Later the Conditions of Carriage would have required him to purchase a ticket for part of his journey which he would have been able to exchange in part-payment for the desired ticket. Both of those options have largely disappeared and the railway has left a void where it pretends this situation doesn't exist. If you purchase a ticket that allows you to make the first part of your journey, there is no longer any guarantee you will be able to use it as part-payment for the correct ticket. If you don't buy a ticket at all, you may be issued with a Penalty Fare. (Very rarely, there is a poster at a station that covers the situation, perhaps instructing you to use the help-point to obtain permission or allowing you to pay later.)

Of course he should appeal for the reasons discussed, but since the problem is one of the railway's own making which it likes to pretend doesn't occur, don't expect an appeal to succeed unless he can find something in writing that says what he did was encouraged. Or he might need to present a complex legal argument. In short, he should have bought the ticket in advance or else bought a different ticket that was available (and paid more in total).

Saveaway Tickets & Prices | Merseytravel

The Merseytravel Saveaway ticket is a one-day, off-peak ticket for buses, trains and Mersey Ferries.

www.merseytravel.gov.uk

You are also on shaky ground with PRIV nowadays.

I do understand your argument, but this opens up a can of worms again. You say buy in advance, however to do that would involve travelling to a ticket office anyway so not really making a difference as he would then still have to pay to get there. You can buy them only 1 day in advance if i remember rightly.

The cheaper option if paying to a ticket office, would be to go from Overpool to Ellesmere Port, but given this journey was later this afternoon, would be no help as the office closes at around 2pm and then only a TVM is available.

I don't personally see why a passenger should have to make special effort, or pay extra, to get to an office to buy a ticket that is valid from the origin station.

It isnt limited to just Saveaways, as far as I know other rangers such as the Cheshire Day Ranger cant be bought from these machines either

@Watershed I agree with what you say about obtaining permission etc, it's hard enough to obtain permission to travel from a staffed station letalone unstaffed. Lets say my friend used the help point and staff advised to pay at Liverpool, its still your word against the revenue team as its only verbal permission and chances are wouldnt have made a difference - something we have seen brought up many times on this forum!

 

[Watershed]

@Watershed I agree with what you say about obtaining permission etc, it's hard enough to obtain permission to travel from a staffed station letalone unstaffed. Lets say my friend used the help point and staff advised to pay at Liverpool, its still your word against the revenue team as its only verbal permission and chances are wouldnt have made a difference - something we have seen brought up many times on this forum!

In which case it would be advisable to record the permission to travel, either by audio or video. Then you have indisputable evidence of the permission, which can be adduced upon appeal or in court (even if staff on the day disregard it).

Whenever I have doubts about permission to travel being honoured, I record the conversation. It shouldn't fall on passengers to do that, but ultimately you have to look after your own interests first and foremost.

 

[furlong]

The best evidence for an appeal might be to have lots of previous tickets purchased the intended way without having been notified that he must not do this (with the SRA's old penalty fares documentation in support). The SRA was clear about the necessity of consistency - you could not sell someone a ticket one day then issue them with a penalty the next unless you had warned them on that previous occasion, and the underlying legislation has not changed so it should be possible to make the same argument, that the company was complicit in the failure.

 

[Bertie the bus]

I don't know if this is of any use but a while ago I asked for a Saveaway at a Merseyrail station, wasn't informed Merseyrail only issue them on ITSO cars and was just given a Merseyrail only day pass instead. I only discovered that had happened after I started my journey and when I got to Liverpool they upgraded it to a Saveaway for just the difference in price (+ £1 for the ITSO card) without any argument at all. So that might be something for your friend to consider in the future.

 

[furlong]

Here I would disagree - the instructions for staff travel facilities holders are clear in giving permission to board without a ticket (albeit obtaining a Permit to Travel or Promise to Pay Notice if available) if no ticket office exists, or is open, at your boarding station.

You're right - this has changed since I last checked - it is sufficient now to "actively seek to pay".

 

[L401CJF]

I don't know if this is of any use but a while ago I asked for a Saveaway at a Merseyrail station, wasn't informed Merseyrail only issue them on ITSO cars and was just given a Merseyrail only day pass instead. I only discovered that had happened after I started my journey and when I got to Liverpool they upgraded it to a Saveaway for just the difference in price (+ £1 for the ITSO card) without any argument at all. So that might be something for your friend to consider in the future.

I was just wondering whether it was possible to "excess" another ticket, whether it be a single or a Merseyrail Day Saver to a Saveaway. Never straightforward, but i will keep this in mind!

 

[island]

Unfortunately I must concur. There is an ambiguity in the rules at current - whilst it seems perfectly reasonable to board without a ticket, if the ticket you want isn't sold at the station, it's unclear that this is permissible without some form of permission to do so. That permission is clearly given by, for example, Northern's Promise to Pay Notice. Of course that isn't available at other TOCs' stations.

I agree with this analysis. It is a gap in the system that is not well accounted for by the rules.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I agree with this analysis. It is a gap in the system that is not well accounted for by the rules.

How do Merseyrail typically handle this if you want e.g. a monthly season? As I understood things, you could only board without if the tickets normally available from that station were not available, e.g. the TVM was broken, not because the TVM didn't sell what you wanted because that ticket is only available from a booking office.

 

[L401CJF]

How do Merseyrail typically handle this if you want e.g. a monthly season? As I understood things, you could only board without if the tickets normally available from that station were not available, e.g. the TVM was broken, not because the TVM didn't sell what you wanted because that ticket is only available from a booking office.

It would usually be a PFN for being unable to produce a ticket, their revenue staff arnt open to talking from what I have witnessed over the years. I often used to board at a staffed station and the office would be closed, i always took a picture of it as they never believed you - or bothered to phone and check and always assumed guilty.

Regarding permit to travel etc, was this ever the case at these unstaffed stations? I seem to recall prior to TVMs being installed the guards would write out paper tickets if boarding at these stations.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It would usually be a PFN for being unable to produce a ticket, their revenue staff arnt open to talking from what I have witnessed over the years. I often used to board at a staffed station and the office would be closed, i always took a picture of it as they never believed you - or bothered to phone and check and always assumed guilty

They don't seem a cheery lot. On Monday evening one of them approached me looking very suspiciously at me for having a look through the window of the Mtogo to see if they had any of the soft toy 507s left, and when I saw they did and went and bought some and made a bit of a joke about having bought them at this time of night I just got a stark stare. I'm convinced he thought I was staking it out to see if I could find a way to fare dodge. They have done well with reducing the petty crime issues the system used to have, but it just doesn't have the friendly feel it used to have. Even LNR has a much friendlier feel (and Euston LNR gateline don't start PFing you if you couldn't buy the ticket you wanted at origin - the Avanti staff have a reputation on here but not the separate LNR staff who run the 8-11 gateline).

The situation with Saveaways is nonsensical, though - TVMs can be fitted for ITSO purchase (and even, at higher cost, to spit out actual cards, like TfL ones do), I have no idea why they don't.

Regarding permit to travel etc, was this ever the case at these unstaffed stations? I seem to recall prior to TVMs being installed the guards would write out paper tickets if boarding at these stations.

No, Merseyrail have never issued Permits to Travel. I'm fairly sure, but may be wrong, that the TVMs were installed before Penalty Fares were a thing.

Originally, before the TVMs were installed, a member of staff went back and forth between Hooton and Ellesmere Port/Chester selling tickets from a handwritten XS pad for cash only, but that was a long time ago.

 

[Watershed]

Regarding permit to travel etc, was this ever the case at these unstaffed stations?

Absolutely. When Penalty Fares were first introduced on Network Southeast in the early 1990s, they installed Permit to Travel machines at all the unstaffed stations - and even a few staffed ones in case the ticket office queue was long.

With most Permit to Travel machines now gone or out of service, TOCs basically say that if the queue is long, it's tough luck and you're supposed to miss the train.

When Penalty Fares were first being debated in the House of Commons, the ability to quickly obtain a Permit to Travel, to demonstrate intent to pay, was hailed as one of the 'safeguards' against unfair penalties being levied.

Funny how most of those safeguards have been eroded over time, yet Penalty Fares are soon to be increased to £100 (inflation-adjusted, that's an increase of more than 4 times compared to their original value of £10 in 1990).

I seem to recall prior to TVMs being installed the guards would write out paper tickets if boarding at these stations.

That's the problem - if there are no ticket facilities at all at a station, then nobody can suggest you've done anything wrong by just boarding. But as soon as there are facilities which enable you to buy some tickets, even if not the one you're after, it becomes murkier.

The former right under the NRCoC to buy a ticket that covered part of your journey, which you could exchange for the ticket you actually wanted onboard the train, or at your interchange or destination station, has been removed. This means that people are often left with the invidious choice between overpaying or risking a Penalty Fare or prosecution.

 

[island]

How do Merseyrail typically handle this if you want e.g. a monthly season? As I understood things, you could only board without if the tickets normally available from that station were not available, e.g. the TVM was broken, not because the TVM didn't sell what you wanted because that ticket is only available from a booking office.

I understand monthly seasons are still available under the "buy a single and sort it at the other end" process. But I may be wrong.

 

[L401CJF]

They don't seem a cheery lot. On Monday evening one of them approached me looking very suspiciously at me for having a look through the window of the Mtogo to see if they had any of the soft toy 507s left, and when I saw they did and went and bought some and made a bit of a joke about having bought them at this time of night I just got a stark stare. I'm convinced he thought I was staking it out to see if I could find a way to fare dodge. They have done well with reducing the petty crime issues the system used to have, but it just doesn't have the friendly feel it used to have. Even LNR has a much friendlier feel (and Euston gateline don't start PFing you if you couldn't buy the ticket you wanted at origin).

The situation with Saveaways is nonsensical, though - TVMs can be fitted for ITSO purchase (and even, at higher cost, to spit out actual cards, like TfL ones do), I have no idea why they don't.



No, Merseyrail have never issued Permits to Travel. I'm fairly sure, but may be wrong, that the TVMs were installed before Penalty Fares were a thing.

Originally, before the TVMs were installed, a member of staff went back and forth between Hooton and Ellesmere Port/Chester selling tickets from a handwritten XS pad for cash only, but that was a long time ago.

Thats how I remember it too. If i remember rightly when the Penalty Fare scheme was introduced the Chester and Ellesmere Port branches were exempt until the TVMs were installed. It mentioned that PFs did not apply at these stations in small print at the bottom.

I'm pretty sure back then Saveaways wernt valid to Chester and Ellesmere Port either.

I have emailed Merseyrail today for some clarity, aside from this particular penalty fare issue which my friend will deal with separately.

At least then, in theory, I'll be able to share some sort of written preferred way of doing it and maybe cast away some doubt.

Edit- I agree about the network losing its friendly feel over the last few years on all sides, not just the Carlisle enforcement although a fair few of those definitely thing theyre top dog.

 

[STINT47]

I've just been onto Mersyrail website and under the understanding revenue protection section it provides a link to their penalty fare guidelines.

On opening this I found the following

4.1.3 Traveling on a train

A collector cannot charge a penalty fare to a person if.

1. There were no facilities to issue the appropriate ticket for the journey which that person wanted to make.

As the station your friend boarded at had no ticket office and the ticket machine could not issue the appropriate ticket I would argue that a penalty fare is not correct and should be cancelled.

Of course the TOC and it's agents could argue with you over what an appropriate ticket is. The TVM could for example issue a single giving you a valid ticket for the train. However as you needed a ticket to also use a bus service later in the day I would say that no facilities existed to issue the appropriate ticket.

I would definitely appeal and re appeal if rejected. How far you want to go will depend on how much you feel your time is worth. Sadly some TICS make it asgard as possible in the hope you'll get fed up and just pay to make it go away.

On a side note Mersyrail really should get rid of they're rail only day tickets. The difference in price is so small all passengers may as well be issued with a multi medal ticket.

https://www.merseyrail.org/media/1002050/penalty-fares-guidelines-2018.pdf

---

 

[L401CJF]

I've just been onto Mersyrail website and under the understanding revenue protection section it provides a link to their penalty fare guidelines.

On opening this I found the following

4.1.3 Traveling on a train

A collector cannot charge a penalty fare to a person if.

1. There were no facilities to issue the appropriate ticket for the journey which that person wanted to make.

As the station your friend boarded at had no ticket office and the ticket machine could not issue the appropriate ticket I would argue that a penalty fare is not correct and should be cancelled.

Of course the TOC and it's agents could argue with you over what an appropriate ticket is. The TVM could for example issue a single giving you a valid ticket for the train. However as you needed a ticket to also use a bus service later in the day I would say that no facilities existed to issue the appropriate ticket.

I would definitely appeal and re appeal if rejected. How far you want to go will depend on how much you feel your time is worth. Sadly some TICS make it asgard as possible in the hope you'll get fed up and just pay to make it go away.

On a side note Mersyrail really should get rid of they're rail only day tickets. The difference in price is so small all passengers may as well be issued with a multi medal ticket.

https://www.merseyrail.org/media/1002050/penalty-fares-guidelines-2018.pdf

---

That is brilliant, id spent a while trawling through the nationail rail conditions but didnt think to check merseyrails own site!

 

[Bletchleyite]

On a side note Mersyrail really should get rid of they're rail only day tickets. The difference in price is so small all passengers may as well be issued with a multi medal ticket.

Yes, I do think these are a bit of a scam given the tiny price difference, and I'm surprised their contract with the PTE (it's not a national franchise) allows them to do it.

 

[L401CJF]

Yes, I do think these are a bit of a scam given the tiny price difference, and I'm surprised their contract with the PTE (it's not a national franchise) allows them to do it.

And half the time they're crafty and issue you a Rail Only day saver when you ask for a Saveaway

 

[JBuchananGB]

Another thing Merseyrail should do IMHO is allow Senior Railcard discounts on their DaySaver tickets. Of course from their perspective anyone eligible for a Senior Railcard is entitled to a MerseyTravel Over 60s pass. That however only applies to people resident in Merseyside. Living as I do in West Lancashire 200 yards outside the Merseyside boundary, and within walking distance of Merseyrail stations, I have to use some eccentric ticket purchasing strategies to make the best savings with my Senior Railcard. My Lancashire County Council issued ENCTS takes care of the buses, so I don't need a Merseytravel Saveaway.

 

[nedchester]

Another thing Merseyrail should do IMHO is allow Senior Railcard discounts on their DaySaver tickets. Of course from their perspective anyone eligible for a Senior Railcard is entitled to a MerseyTravel Over 60s pass. That however only applies to people resident in Merseyside. Living as I do in West Lancashire 200 yards outside the Merseyside boundary, and within walking distance of Merseyrail stations, I have to use some eccentric ticket purchasing strategies to make the best savings with my Senior Railcard. My Lancashire County Council issued ENCTS takes care of the buses, so I don't need a Merseytravel Saveaway.

Or any railcard discount.

Went to Liverpool last week with my wife. Could have bought to Day Savers at £5.60 each but we bought two CDRs Capenhurst to Newton-le-Willows at £3.65 each with a two together railcard.

 

[JBuchananGB]

The lack of Off-Peak Singles and Returns on Merseyrail, and the non-acceptance of Railcards on Daysavers does lead to some eccentric fare opportunities. The least said about the details the better!

 

[gray1404]

Absolutely appalling behaviour from the enforcement team on Merseyrail. Their militant rent a thug and non-flexible attitude is just quite frankly disgusting.

I would appeal this. Bear in mind you can appeal up to three times and often it is only at the third appeal does something get overturned. Then once your appeal has been successful, assuming it is, make a formal complaint to Merseyrail demanding compensation. If they do not uphold your complaint asked for a managerial review and don't be afraid to take it to the Rail Ombudsman.

The purpose of your complaints would be to ensure that the staff receive necessary action to actually do their job correctly moving forward and assurances that such a situation will not occur again. That is that the penalty fares regulations are applied correctly.

Merseyrail are going to run a penalty fares scheme then it has to be in accordance with the regulations. As they appear to be acting outside of the regulations I'm wondering if this could be reported to the DFT or ORR.

@furlong if I could just check is the debate here whether or not the traveller should have purchased a ticket for part of their journey then pay the difference between that and the ticket required upon arrival in Liverpool? My interpretation personally though is that the required ticket was not available for purchase and therefore the regulations and conditions of travel allow the passenger to commence their journey and purchase at the first opportunity without delaying themselves. We all know that had they arrived in Liverpool with a ticket getting a refund on it/or paying the difference between that and a Saveaway would have been a no go for Merseyrail booking office. In fact they would probably have been told that they should have got on the train without a ticket if the ticket machine didn't sell it.

 

[JBuchananGB]

On the one occasion when discovered that I had bought the wrong ticket on Merseyrail, I was pleasantly surprised when a different ticket office issued a replacement (correct) ticket, and deducted the amount I had paid for the wrong ticket from the price. My "wrong" ticket was a single from Maghull to Hall Road, and this was replaced with a Daysaver. The situation arose because plans changed. A walking group of which I am a member advertised a walk from Hall Road to Maghull. Parked my car and Maghull and went to Hall Road. At Hall Road the itinerary was changed to a circular walk finishing at Hall Road. Now I needed to get back to Maghull. Fully expected to have to buy a new single, but when I explained the situation and proffered the used single ticket, Daysaver was issued. Although this is not quite the same as OP's case, I offer it as evidence that it is not unknown for Merseyrail to accept a used single ticket as part payment for another ticket.

 

[Snow1964]

The concept that you buy a random ticket, eg a single then exchange it as part payment puts the customer at risk that the intended ticket will be issued with just the balance to pay. So gambling on another ticket office being open (not doing unscheduled non opening), and that they will definitely do the swap without quibble.

All seems a bit far fetched, it would be like your local supermarket expecting you to make a part payment in fruit and veg section, when you leave that section, which they will deduct when you get to main till. No one else would expect you to have to pay at two different locations because first one can’t handle payments for something they are selling.