Mine Shafts Next to Tracks - How Close?

[Andy873]

I've been plotting my branch line of interest on the 1844-45 OS map sheet. The L&Y started to construct the line in 1870, but what surprised me was just how close one old mine shaft was to the tracks...

Have a look please at this photo from the Steaming North site (click on the photo to enlarge):

Last Days of the North East Lancs Loop line - 15/04/1963 LMS Hughes 2-6-0 "Crab"- 42828 - SteamingNorth.com ... (Click on a picture to open that album and then on a picture to enlarge it...........Pictures copyright of Author

www.steamingnorth.com

The photo explained:
The train is on the branch Up line, the track on the right is the Up siding next to the roofless carriage shed.
This train is passing the home signal of Gt. Harwood station.

Now, somewhere from the signal post (coming towards us) and between both of those two tracks is or was a coal mine shaft, and it's clear the L&Y when planning and building this line would have wanted to avoid laying tracks directly over the shaft. I believe this coal mine was part of a group of mines know as Clayton Collieries which closed circa 1858, that's only 12 years before 1870.

Sorry for citing my old branch line again, but was it common for railway companies to place track so close to mine shafts?

Would the L&Y have capped the shaft?
Filled it in?
And what's the object in the bottom left of the photo? is that the capped shaft or the end of the platform ramp?
What other examples of shafts that close to railway lines are there from around the country?

Thanks,
Andy.

 

[Gloster]

I am no engineer, but I would suspect that they would have filled it in, rather than just capped it, as less likely to give problems later: they have easy access to infill. I would also presume that, as with any other ground problem, shafts were to be avoided where possible, but dealt with if that was too difficult. The engineers would make their decision, as they did frequently, as to whether avoiding a problem was better than dealing with it. I can’t see anything unusual in the bottom left foreground. There were probably dozens of other shafts around the country which you don’t hear about unless they give problems.

 

[John Luxton]

There is a mineshaft almost on the south side of a cutting in the the Camborne - Redruth area of Cornwall. It's visible from the train with fencing and signs. The some of the shaft fencing is inside the railway fencing. The old OS Maps site suggests it is Roskear Shaft, Dolcoath mine.

 

[Ashley Hill]

IIRC there was one at Wheal Busy near Redruth. The track had extra rails for strengthening. A few years ago I think it was dealt with properly during a possession.

 

[alex17595]

Certainly in the past at least one train has gone down an old shaft, for example this one near Wigan.

Page 12

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[Andy873]

I am no engineer, but I would suspect that they would have filled it in, rather than just capped it, as less likely to give problems later: they have easy access to infill. I would also presume that, as with any other ground problem, shafts were to be avoided where possible, but dealt with if that was too difficult

Wise words as always, thanks for that. The shaft as mentioned in my opening post does look like it was indeed filled in otherwise as a railway company you could be storing up a problem for a later date.

There is a mineshaft almost on the south side of a cutting in the the Camborne - Redruth area of Cornwall. It's visible from the train with fencing and signs. The some of the shaft fencing is inside the railway fencing. The old OS Maps site suggests it is Roskear Shaft, Dolcoath mine.

That's sounds very close to the tracks to me, I presume the shaft is still there today?

IIRC there was one at Wheal Busy near Redruth. The track had extra rails for strengthening. A few years ago I think it was dealt with properly during a possession.

@Ashley Hill, thanks for another example.

Certainly in the past at least one train has gone down an old shaft, for example this one near Wigan.

A very sad and needless accident. I almost asked the question in the opening post if any tracks were ever placed directly over a shaft - you would have to be very short on space to do so, and no one would knowingly place track over a shaft - or would they?

With regards to the shaft at Harwood station, it was sunk to get out Arley coal. This coal seam (a seam in Lancashire was actually called a Mine) was actually in two levels. The Upper mountain mine and the lower one, at nearby Marthohlme colliery the shat had to go down 315 feet (Upper mine seam) and 630 feet for the lower seam.

Question - If you have a mine shaft say just 10 - 20 feet away from track, wouldn't the constant vibration of trains going past unsettle a shaft over time? especially a disused one that's not being maintained / kept in good order.

 

[alex17595]

They do try to avoid building directly on shafts. If you have a look at the old os maps and compare them to today they are usually under a car park/road/field or there is a gap in the houses.

Mining in this country is so old that many of the shaft are undocumented.

There's also a difference between coal and hard rock mines. Hard rock mines tend to be very stable, like the example above tin mines were unlined and just carved out of solid rock.

Capping methods have also changed over time. In the past they would put big blocks of wood part way down the shaft and fill above it. Eventually these would rot and everything would fall to the bottom of the shaft. I saw a posted on Facebook where someone picked a rock up off the floor and it was hiding an 80ft hole below it.

Now days they tend to get filled and capped with a 50ft+ block of concrete.

 

[aar0]

You can see all the known mine entries on the Coal Authority website. Plenty aren’t known, as Alex says, and it’s not uncommon for capping with wooden sleepers to fail now the sleepers are 100+ years old, and then the Coal Authority come in and fill it with concrete (and try and work out who owns it and if they’re responsible!).

There are some mine entries that are collapsing but it’s been agreed that investigating and then concrete capping is likely to cause far more disruption, I know of one less than a metre from a road…

 

[zwk500]

Question - If you have a mine shaft say just 10 - 20 feet away from track, wouldn't the constant vibration of trains going past unsettle a shaft over time? especially a disused one that's not being maintained / kept in good order.

This would certainly be a concern and the engineers would look at both the railway traffic and the underlying geology when deciding what measures were approriate to manage the shafts.

However, as mentioned, they don't always get it right and over time things can change underneath the ground without being noticeable on the surface. There is also a high risk of inaccurate or incomplete record keeping - Victorian-era legilsation on such things wasn't strong and enforcement even weaker. Plenty of railway enhancement projects (Bolton electrification comes to mind IIRC) have come across unknown mine workings only once holes are being bored!

 

[billh]

According to the Coal Authority plans, there is a shaft in the middle of a suburban avenue,about 200yards away from my home, The only statistic known is that it is about 2metres diameter. As far as I know it has never been a problem, the road dates back to about 1900, the shaft may well be 18th Century.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Mining susidence also became a serious issue after lines had been built in the coalfield areas too. The Great Central north of Nottingham was riddled with speed restrictions, whilst in the South Wales Valleys several viaducts had to be demolished / singled after being undermined. And not just coal minining - Sandbach to Crewe was undermined by brine pumping with a 40mph limit on the fast lines (20mph on the slow) for many years. Pumping has now stopped enabling the fast line to be raised to 75mph.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

As far as I know it has never been a problem...

Of course, that's the nub of the issue. It's not a problem until one day you wake up to a rumbling noise and there's now a gaping big hole that's appeared in your driveway.

 

[Andy873]

You can see all the known mine entries on the Coal Authority website

Thanks, I forgot about that site.

This would certainly be a concern and the engineers would look at both the railway traffic and the underlying geology when deciding what measures were approriate to manage the shafts.

What to do with an old abandoned mine shaft - that's the question the railway companies had to consider carefully I would have thought.

According to the Coal Authority plans, there is a shaft in the middle of a suburban avenue,about 200yards away from my home, The only statistic known is that it is about 2metres diameter

I was about to ask what diameter of a shaft would have been around the 1840's and roughly six feet sound likely to me (but I'm no expert!), large enough to send some sort of cage or a bucket affair up and down the shaft with perhaps four people at a go - perhaps?

Mining susidence also became a serious issue after lines had been built in the coalfield areas too.

in the South Wales Valleys several viaducts had to be demolished / singled after being undermined

Subsidence was indeed a very real and on going problem in coal mining areas, and my old branch line suffered from it all its life until they pulled it up.

With regards to viaducts, the L&Y initially wanted to build Martholme viaduct in stone but the person who won the contract to build this section of the line refused, stating that if the coal under the viaduct was ever dug out it would collapse. The order to build it in wood was given only for the L&Y to change their minds - in short the railway company paid a mouth watering 1,800 (in 1870) for the coal - add two zeros onto that and you'll get the idea of the cost today, and the sandstone viaduct still stands today.

Of course, that's the nub of the issue. It's not a problem until one day you wake up to a rumbling noise and there's now a gaping big hole that's appeared in your front garden.

Yes, sink holes would be a very big worry for the railway companies, even more so for the train crews!

Regarding mine spoil:

I've visited some of the old slate mines in North Wales. From what I remember, all around there was spoil from the mines close by... I'm presuming the same applied to coal mines?

Question please - was mine spoil ever used in railway construction?
And would you have had to pay the landowner for it?

 

[Gloster]

I would doubt if mine spoil was often used in railway construction as it would likely be much too friable. But there were probably exceptions, some due to corner cutting.

 

[aar0]

Question please - was mine spoil ever used in railway construction?

It has been used in general construction, the Llyn Brianne reservoir (1970s) has about 250,000 tonnes of mine waste from Nantymwyn lead mine. I don’t think they paid much for it, if anything.

 

[Ploughman]

During the Electrification work around Bolton a few years back, weren't there some problems with old mine workings?

Also, on the NYMR at Grosmont there are workings under the railway that have opened up and caused some slippage of the ballast.

 

[Falcon1200]

Back in 2003/2004 the ECML near Prestonpans had to be realigned due to mine subsidence, and before that was done a speed restriction was imposed through the area.

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[stibz]

Many old "Shaft" "Mines" from back before the 1800s, where probably "Bell Pits", filled in after worked, then they sank another close to it, no props ect just a hole that widened out at the bottom. Seen many personally, from top to bottom when I worked on opencast mines, even seen them sliced down the middle showing the profile down to coal level. Just filled in with muck, no sign in the ground above, until you removed the soil and found the round circle of different dirt. Was all interesting, seeing old mine working in daylight when we uncovered them. The coal authority "Viewer" shows entirs to mines all over the place, marked with a red cross, many overlapping as they where so close. Just recently I saw a 4ft thick seam of coal uncovered, no more than a couple of foot below the railway ballast Nr Ravensthorpe station, West Yorks. They dug trough it when making footings for new bridge. Just search "Bell pits" interesting what the poor miners had to do in those times. Lots of mining mitigation going on down there, looking for mine workings and voids.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Was the Lindal sidings train incident back in 1892 (this on the line between Barrow-in-Furness and Dalton) when a goods loco suddenly disappeared into a deep hole underneath the tracks, confirmed as anything to do with collapsed mine workings in the immediate area?


(Pic of gaping hole in middle of railway track - Lindal, Cumbria (September 1892) - Source: Wikipedia.)

 

[Gloster]

Was the Lindal sidings train incident back in 1892 (this on the line between Barrow-in-Furness and Dalton) when a goods loco suddenly disappeared into a deep hole underneath the tracks, confirmed as anything to do with collapsed mine workings in the immediate area?

View attachment 166120
(Pic of gaping hole in middle of railway track - Lindal, Cumbria (September 1892) - Source: Wikipedia.)

I believe that was what was believed for many years, but more recently it has been suggested that it was the underlying geology and a recent downpour that was (more) to blame. I am, as always, just a little bit sceptical about new theories: it is much easier to get some publicity by saying that ‘I have looked at all this and have a new theory’, than to say ‘I have looked at it and agree entirely with all that has been written before’. (Think of all those local newspaper headlines about how Shakespeare/Dickens/Fleming got the idea for Hamlet/Edwin Drood/Casino Royale from something that happened in your village of [subs, fill in name].)

 

[Ducatist4]

The more "standard" type of shaft that was in use till the 1990's would have been filled and capped. Silverhill in Notts for example was filled with alternating layers of hardcore and concrete, roughly 30,000 tons in each shaft. They would brick up all the roadways first. All that can be seen today is a methane vent pipe. Shirebrook (where I live) has the Sportdirect warehouse built directly over the shafts.

 

[cin88]

During the Electrification work around Bolton a few years back, weren't there some problems with old mine workings?

The story goes (since varified by a colleague who has transferred from the OLE department) that the engineers dug the holes for the piles for the OLE as normal then when going to drive them in, found that they simply went straight down through the hole and out of sight, to much confusion. Turns out there's quite a few undocumented mine shafts along the entire route from Salford Crescent to Wigan, especially around Kearsley.

 

[Andy873]

Was the Lindal sidings train incident back in 1892 (this on the line between Barrow-in-Furness and Dalton) when a goods loco suddenly disappeared into a deep hole underneath the tracks, confirmed as anything to do with collapsed mine workings in the immediate area?

Not sure what caused that hole but it does make for a dramatic photo.

The more "standard" type of shaft that was in use till the 1990's would have been filled and capped. Silverhill in Notts for example was filled with alternating layers of hardcore and concrete, roughly 30,000 tons in each shaft. They would brick up all the roadways first. All that can be seen today is a methane vent pipe. Shirebrook (where I live) has the Sportdirect warehouse built directly over the shafts.

Interesting how the shafts were filled in, I bet most of the people working in the warehouse don't realise what's under their feet.

The story goes (since varified by a colleague who has transferred from the OLE department) that the engineers dug the holes for the piles for the OLE as normal then when going to drive them in, found that they simply went straight down through the hole and out of sight

Well, I don't know about anyone else but if I'd had seen the piles disappear like that I wouldn't want to be any where near the place!

Mines of course were really the birthplace of the railways and as Britain's rail network developed mines must have been both a blessing and a curse. On the plus side, railway companies would want to tap into the business and pick up mineral traffic etc. On the down side, you have all those underground workings causing subsidence, old shafts to avoid (if you knew about them that is!).

If I can ask an off topic question please - how many people would be employed in a reasonably sized coal mine in say 1910? I'm looking at one of them (The Calder colliery) which seems to be similar in size to the nearby Martholme colliery, at this one there were around 350 employees, would Calder have had roughly the same number? The reason I ask is that sometime between 1905 - 1909 the platforms at the small country station of Simonstone (only 0.3 miles away from the Calder colliery) were extended by 145 feet to 395.

 

[alex17595]

If I can ask an off topic question please - how many people would be employed in a reasonably sized coal mine in say 1910? I'm looking at one of them (The Calder colliery) which seems to be similar in size to the nearby Martholme colliery, at this one there were around 350 employees, would Calder have had roughly the same number? The reason I ask is that sometime between 1905 - 1909 the platforms at the small country station of Simonstone (only 0.3 miles away from the Calder colliery) were extended by 145 feet to 395.

It varied massively depending on the size of the mine, method of working and underground conditions. Some of the bigger pits had thousands of people working there, some mines had less than 10.

 

[Morayshire]

One quick google later...

Lancashire Telegraph says 200 underground and 37 above ground

Link to Lancashire Telegraph article

Down the road from Altham, work began in December, 1902, on sinking the shaft of the Calder Colliery alongside the Clayton-le-Moors to Padiham road near its bridge over the river from which the pit took it name. The picture below shows the shaft collar in position, ready for sinking to commence.

Four men were killed in February, 1908, when the sinking was almost completed. They were descending the new shaft in a tub connected to just two chains when it collided with a beam and all four were thrown to their deaths to the pit bottom. By the end of the First World War, the Calder Colliery employed 200 men underground and 37 surface workers. Until the 1920s, an aerial ropeway took its output to the coke ovens at the Huncoat Colliery.

Later the two mines were connected underground and coal from the Calder pit was raised at Huncoat and screened there. The Calder mine closed in 1958.

Also worth mentioning the Northern Mine Research Society and the Durham Mining Museum as sources for all things mining

 

[Andy873]

One quick google later...

Lancashire Telegraph says 200 underground and 37 above ground

Thanks so much for that. I was simply trying to work out what possible reason a railway company would have to extend a relatively quite station's platforms by 145 feet - perhaps the L&Y were expecting more passengers because of the new mine - Perhaps.

Thanks all for the replies, photos etc!

 

[zwk500]

Thanks so much for that. I was simply trying to work out what possible reason a railway company would have to extend a relatively quite station's platforms by 145 feet - perhaps the L&Y were expecting more passengers because of the new mine - Perhaps.

Thanks all for the replies, photos etc!

200-250 people would be a low number to justify workmen's trains, I'd have thought. That sounds a number easily accommodated in a pit village. Platform extensions could well be because of traffic elsewhere on the line necessitating generally longer trains and it's easier to extend the platforms than to have to draw up or similar. It could also be because a passing loop (if present) was being lengthened for goods traffic, and the opportunity was taken to match the platform lengths to the operational loop length. Other reasons beyond those two exist of course.

You'd need to look at timetables before and after to get an idea why the extension was undertaken.