MK3 production numbers

[montyburns56]

I was looking at the Wiki page for the MK3 coach and I was amazed to see that the number of MK3 sleepers produced (208) was almost as many as the number of standard loco hauled mk3s (253). I guess that when they put in the orders that BR didn't anticipate the shrinkage of the sleeper network, but did anyone ever question the numbers during production and perhaps suggest cutting back on them or switching to producing more standard loco hauled coaches?

Also the Wiki page suggest that some of the planned loco hauled production was switched to building HST trailers instead. Is this true?

 

[43096]

Also the Wiki page suggest that some of the planned loco hauled production was switched to building HST trailers instead. Is this true?

I'm not aware of any cancelled/amended Mark 3 orders that switched from LHCS to HST vehicle spec - the HST vehicles were always authorised separately and at the same time as the relevant power cars for that order.

 

[Magdalia]

The original Mark III sleeper order in 1978 was 236 vehicles. In 1981, around the time of the first deliveries, it was cut back to 210. Railway Observer reported this in the January 1982 issue, when it noted that the Mark I sleeper fleet was 298 vehicles.

There is an earlier discussion of Mark III sleepers here.

Scrapping of Mk3 sleeper vehicles by British Rail

I think I have read that British Rail ordered loads of Mark III sleeper carriages in the early 1980's only to scrap most of them later that decade. Tell me this is not true? If it is, when added to the Nightstar fiasco this would explain where the entire budget for decent trains in the north has...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Helvellyn]

The original Mark III sleeper order in 1978 was 236 vehicles. In 1981, around the time of the first deliveries, it was cut back to 210. Railway Observer reported this in the January 1982 issue, when it noted that the Mark I sleeper fleet was 298 vehicles.

There is an earlier discussion of Mark III sleepers here.

Scrapping of Mk3 sleeper vehicles by British Rail

I think I have read that British Rail ordered loads of Mark III sleeper carriages in the early 1980's only to scrap most of them later that decade. Tell me this is not true? If it is, when added to the Nightstar fiasco this would explain where the entire budget for decent trains in the north has...

www.railforums.co.uk

It was actually 266 as per an earlier thread I can't locate:

• 146 SLEPs (Sleeper Either class Pantry)
• 120 SLEs (Sleeper Either class)

It's why the SLE numbering starts at 10646 because under the original plan the SLEPs would have been 10500-10645 and the SLEs 10646-10765.

I was looking at the Wiki page for the MK3 coach and I was amazed to see that the number of MK3 sleepers produced (208) was almost as many as the number of standard loco hauled mk3s (253). I guess that when they put in the orders that BR didn't anticipate the shrinkage of the sleeper network, but did anyone ever question the numbers during production and perhaps suggest cutting back on them or switching to producing more standard loco hauled coaches?

Also the Wiki page suggest that some of the planned loco hauled production was switched to building HST trailers instead. Is this true?

It would have been 210 Sleepers - the bodyshells for what would have been 10734/10735 became Royal Household Sleeping Cars 2914/2915 before they could be completed.

Standard number of loco-hauled Mark 3As/3Bs was actually 294:

• 11004-11063 - 60 FOs (3A)
• 12004-12168 - 165 TSOs (3A)
• 10001-10028 - 28 RUB (3A)
• 11064-11101 - 38 FO (3B)
• 17173-17175 - 3 BFO (3B)

The 3A FOs/TSOs were ordered first, then the 3A RUBs, then the Sleepers, then the 3Bs.

You need to remember that had the APT been a success that the Mk 3A would likely have been off the WCML by the mid-1980s (or just operating Euston-Birmingham) and there would have been no Mark 3B order. That, along with the RFM conversion programme, was only necessary after the APT was scrapped and there was a need to replace the Mark 2 Pullmans, upgrade other services and withdraw the Mark 1 catering vehicles from front line service (and standardise catering).

 

[Magdalia]

It was actually 266 as per an earlier thread I can't locate:

• 146 SLEPs (Sleeper Either class Pantry)
• 120 SLEs (Sleeper Either class)

It's why the SLE numbering starts at 10646 because under the original plan the SLEPs would have been 10500-10645 and the SLEs 10646-10765.

Thanks for this. My manuscript research notes also have 266, but the January 1982 Railway Observer says 236, and a Platform 5 book has the SLEs ending at 10735, so I thought that I must have made a transcription error. In that case there must have been two separate cutbacks.

It would have been 210 Sleepers - the bodyshells for what would have been 10734/10735 became Royal Household Sleeping Cars 2914/2915 before they could be completed.

Thanks for this too. I thought that the Royal Train had some involvement in the story!

 

[norbitonflyer]

I thought that the Royal Train had some involvement in the story!

Two of the prototype HST cars ended up in the Royal train too - TF 11001 and TS 12001 becaiame 2903 and 2904.

 

[montyburns56]

The original Mark III sleeper order in 1978 was 236 vehicles. In 1981, around the time of the first deliveries, it was cut back to 210. Railway Observer reported this in the January 1982 issue, when it noted that the Mark I sleeper fleet was 298 vehicles.

There is an earlier discussion of Mark III sleepers here.

Scrapping of Mk3 sleeper vehicles by British Rail

I think I have read that British Rail ordered loads of Mark III sleeper carriages in the early 1980's only to scrap most of them later that decade. Tell me this is not true? If it is, when added to the Nightstar fiasco this would explain where the entire budget for decent trains in the north has...

www.railforums.co.uk

Right thanks, so their actually was a reduction in the production numbers, although even the amended numbers were still rather optimistic.

It was actually 266 as per an earlier thread I can't locate:

• 146 SLEPs (Sleeper Either class Pantry)
• 120 SLEs (Sleeper Either class)

It's why the SLE numbering starts at 10646 because under the original plan the SLEPs would have been 10500-10645 and the SLEs 10646-10765.


It would have been 210 Sleepers - the bodyshells for what would have been 10734/10735 became Royal Household Sleeping Cars 2914/2915 before they could be completed.

Standard number of loco-hauled Mark 3As/3Bs was actually 294:

• 11004-11063 - 60 FOs (3A)
• 12004-12168 - 165 TSOs (3A)
• 10001-10028 - 28 RUB (3A)
• 11064-11101 - 38 FO (3B)
• 17173-17175 - 3 BFO (3B)

The 3A FOs/TSOs were ordered first, then the 3A RUBs, then the Sleepers, then the 3Bs.

You need to remember that had the APT been a success that the Mk 3A would likely have been off the WCML by the mid-1980s (or just operating Euston-Birmingham) and there would have been no Mark 3B order. That, along with the RFM conversion programme, was only necessary after the APT was scrapped and there was a need to replace the Mark 2 Pullmans, upgrade other services and withdraw the Mark 1 catering vehicles from front line service (and standardise catering).

With the LH numbers I was just referring to the original batch of 3As, but I never thought about the impact of the APT to be honest. Thanks.