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MML Electrification: How should it be done?

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Nottingham59

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For me, the highest priority should be RS2, Wigston to Leicester. That would allow the railway (i.e. EMR or any successor) to run electric-only traction from St Pancras to Leicester, and enable Cross Country or its successor to run 50-mile-range Battery trains from Birmingham to Stansted.
 
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zwk500

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For me, the highest priority should be RS2, Wigston to Leicester. That would allow the railway (i.e. EMR or any successor) to run electric-only traction from St Pancras to Leicester, and enable Cross Country or its successor to run 50-mile-range Battery trains from Birmingham to Stansted.
Are there any such trains in the pipeline for that TOC?
 

Bald Rick

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For me, the highest priority should be RS2, Wigston to Leicester. That would allow the railway (i.e. EMR or any successor) to run electric-only traction from St Pancras to Leicester, and enable Cross Country or its successor to run 50-mile-range Battery trains from Birmingham to Stansted.

The reason Leicester is waiting a bit is that it is quite difficult…

And 50 mile battery trains couldn’t get from Birmingham to Stansted, they’d have about 20 minutes on the juice from Birmingham to Ely, and well over 2hr on battery. It needs to be (roughly) about the same on each.
 

Nottingham59

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Are there any such trains in the pipeline for that TOC?
Not as far as I know, but it's the ideal opportunity. XC could replace its entire fleet of 170s with 100-mile-range BEMUs, recharging them at Newport/Cardiff, Derby/Nottingham and Ely/Stansted.
 

Bald Rick

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I am assuming, yes, it is something like that - or get the more difficult bit out of the way first. I don't care as long as it gets done!!

the actual wording was implying that doing RS3 next ‘freed up diversionary routes’.

I suspect this is in relation to the freight ex Mountsorrel. Taking possessions between Syston and Trent is tricky because of the need to keep access to the quarry almost all the time - not least as it supplies a significant proportion of ballast for the rail network.
 

59CosG95

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the actual wording was implying that doing RS3 next ‘freed up diversionary routes’.

I suspect this is in relation to the freight ex Mountsorrel. Taking possessions between Syston and Trent is tricky because of the need to keep access to the quarry almost all the time - not least as it supplies a significant proportion of ballast for the rail network.
Thankfully, RS3 can of course be split with 2 out of 4 lines being shut. I suspect, as well, that Bardon Hill and the quarries on the Ivanhoe Line might do more of a roaring trade during the RS3 works...
 

Nottingham59

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they’d have about 20 minutes on the juice from Birmingham to Ely
I would have expected that would be enough. The specifications for the Stadler Flirt AKKU give "Charging time under catenary: 15 minutes" according to https://www.stadlerrail.com/en/flirt-akku/details/ Are those details misleading, then?

And 50 mile battery trains couldn’t get from Birmingham to Stansted
I was forgetting that Platforms 6 and 7 at Peterborough are not wired. So specify 110 mile range off the wires, if necessary, that being the distance from Birmingham New St to Ely North junction. The combination of BHM-Proof House Junction; Wigston North-Syston South; Ely North-Stansted is at least a third of the total distance from Birmingham to Stansted. With turnaround times at each terminus, that should give plenty of time to recharge.

My point is that BEMUs could exploit MML electrification without additional wiring, and that detailed planning for the MML work should take account of the opportunity. Even if it's just making sure the grid supply points can handle BEMU loads, or longer run-outs at Wigston and Syston to give crossing traffic additional minutes under the wires. (And Dore, Ambergate, Derby, Clay Cross, Lenton etc.)
 

Bald Rick

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I would have expected that would be enough. The specifications for the Stadler Flirt AKKU give "Charging time under catenary: 15 minutes" according to https://www.stadlerrail.com/en/flirt-akku/details/ Are those details misleading, then?

I’ve no idea if the details are misleading, but I very much doubt it. However all the modelling I’ve ever seen for battery trains with 30-50 mile ranges suggest you’d need more than a few miles of wiring to enable such a long journey. Bigger batteries helps, obviously.
 

Killingworth

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I'm asking myself if I'll live to see completion of these long sections to reach Sheffield;

RS6 – Chaddesden Sidings Derby to Toadmoor Tunnel 16.7 kilometres
RS7 – Toadmoor Tunnel to London Road 43.3 kilometres
RS8 – London Road to Sheffield North 2.5 kilometres
 

Nottingham59

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However all the modelling I’ve ever seen for battery trains with 30-50 mile ranges suggest you’d need more than a few miles of wiring to enable such a long journey
I imagine those modelling parameters are being set so as not to exceed the charging capacity of the OHLE. Which is why it is so important to ensure that any new OHLE is specified properly to allow for faster charging rates. Modern transport batteries can accept charge in much less time than they typically spend in driving mode.
 

Bald Rick

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Which is why it is so important to ensure that any new OHLE is specified properly to allow for faster charging rates.

Depends what you mean by ‘properly’, but I certainly wouldn’t expect to have to specify the much thicker cable and thus much heavier supports, structures etc to carry it to deliver massive megawatts to multiple battery trains in section recharging concurrently.
 

Halish Railway

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It's extremely irritating that Ambergate Junction to Matlock isn't included in the scope of MML electrification - Just 7 miles 39 chains of electrification required, compared to 25 miles 53 chains from Ambergate Junction to Nottingham which will be electrified as part of this project which would have allowed Matlock to Nottingham services to be worked by EMUs, resourced from the EMU pool that could work Ivanhoe line stopping services (Although through running to Lincoln and Grimsby would have to end).
 

Nottingham59

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much thicker cable and thus much heavier supports, structures etc to carry it to deliver massive megawatts to multiple battery trains in section recharging concurrently.
It would be much cheaper to build 10 miles of high-current OHLE than 100 miles of standard kit. But nobody in Network Rail seems to be quantifying those trade-offs.

Ambergate Junction to Matlock isn't included in the scope of MML electrification
I'm afraid I would disagree with you there. Matlock has only one train per hour, which would never justify electrification by itself. And Matlock-Newark Castle is a perfect candidate for BEMUs, charging between Derby and Nottingham twice per cycle.
 

Roast Veg

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It's extremely irritating that Ambergate Junction to Matlock isn't included in the scope of MML electrification - Just 7 miles 39 chains of electrification required, compared to 25 miles 53 chains from Ambergate Junction to Nottingham which will be electrified as part of this project which would have allowed Matlock to Nottingham services to be worked by EMUs, resourced from the EMU pool that could work Ivanhoe line stopping services (Although through running to Lincoln and Grimsby would have to end).
This is an ideal battery candidate surely.
 

DDB

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This is an ideal battery candidate surely.
I agree as I expect electrifying it would be disproportionately expensive as there are a lot of pretty and so I expect listed low metal footbridges and it travels through scenic areas where there would probably be a lot of legal challenges as well.

If the performance can be achieved by some sort of hybrid (maybe class 755 if batteries aren't up to it yet ) there are lots of regional routes in the East Midlands that would spend some time under the wires once the mainline is wired). Nottingham-Matlock, Leicester-Lincoln, Crewe-Newark and Liverpool-Norwich.

Edit: Actually Looking at a map the Liverpool-Norwich route is remarkable in how it manages to find all the un electrified lines in any given area! So that wouldn't be suitable.
 

zwk500

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But it seems like an easy to do electrification that can easily be added onto a much bigger scheme. Batteries are a solution to a problem that shouldn't exist.
How much reconstruction would be required for OLE? Batteries are a solution to a problem that is unavoidable on the GB rail network. The Matlock line is never going to need W10/12 clearance for freight, so if a battery extension avoids the need to rebuild every bridge and tunnel surely it's a good compromise? If the Matlock line only has half a dozen footbridges, then yes put up OLE, but if there's a tunnel or something save the money.
 

edwin_m

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It's extremely irritating that Ambergate Junction to Matlock isn't included in the scope of MML electrification - Just 7 miles 39 chains of electrification required, compared to 25 miles 53 chains from Ambergate Junction to Nottingham which will be electrified as part of this project which would have allowed Matlock to Nottingham services to be worked by EMUs, resourced from the EMU pool that could work Ivanhoe line stopping services (Although through running to Lincoln and Grimsby would have to end).
No current EMT regional service could go over to pure EMU operation after completion of MML electrification to Nottingham and Sheffield. That's probably one reason why GWML and lines around Manchester were prioritised over MML in the 2010s, when it was planned to cascade surplus EMUs to reduce the amount of new DMUs needed. Battery EMUs would only really be viable for off-wires running to Matlock, Newark and maybe Lincoln, with several other routes that would touch the wires hardly or not at all. So any single fleet replacement for this service group would have to be a bi-mode, possibly with batteries too.
 

takno

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All very well quoting miles of battery range and tailoring units to suit.
What happens when Battery degradation kicks in?
It's a significantly smaller problem than it used to be, but in essence it is built into the calculations. People buy the trains with a understating of the mileage they will need to achieve, the expected performance of the battery, and where necessary the cost of battery replacement during the lifetime of the stock.
 

Nottingham59

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All very well quoting miles of battery range and tailoring units to suit.
What happens when Battery degradation kicks in?
To avoid going too far off topic on this thread, can I suggest we transfer this discussion to another thread? e.g. here: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ery-emu-for-the-gb-rail-network.238086/page-3

This question was posed on the MML electrification thread, but to avoid going off topic there, I thought I would try to discuss @Ploughman 's question here.

Obviously battery degradation will be an issue for BEMUs as it is for all EVs. I think the railway has a number of possible approaches:
 

ricoblade

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I'm asking myself if I'll live to see completion of these long sections to reach Sheffield;

RS6 – Chaddesden Sidings Derby to Toadmoor Tunnel 16.7 kilometres
RS7 – Toadmoor Tunnel to London Road 43.3 kilometres
RS8 – London Road to Sheffield North 2.5 kilometres

My late (Sheffield) dad was always hoping for the wires to come and now it's me at 57...
 

Nottingham59

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My late (Sheffield) dad was always hoping for the wires to come and now it's me at 57...
I think you will see them in the next ten years. As I understand it, the economics of electrification are compelling at intensively used sections of railway like Sheffield.

And all the trends are moving in the right direction to reinforce those economics: the advent of bimode 810 EMUs and class 93 & 99 locomotives; increased cost of diesel and reducing cost of wind-powered electricity; the availability of and the need to charge battery EMUs; pressure to decarbonise; rapidly improving battery technology. Despite the coming austerity, the financial case will become overwhelming.
 
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Mikey C

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I think you will see them in the next ten years. As I understand it, the economics of electrification are compelling at intensively used sections of railway like Sheffield.

And all the trends are moving in the right direction to reinforce those economics: the advent of bimode 810 EMUs and class 93 & 99 locomotives; increased cost of diesel and reducing cost of wind-powered electricity; the availability of and the need to charge battery EMUs; pressure to decarbonise; rapidly improving battery technology. Despite the coming austerity, the financial case will become overwhelming.
And all the politics behind the Northern Powerhouse, the Red Wall seats held by the Tories etc

Especially if the eastern leg of HS2 stays cancelled past Derby/Nottingham, and the MML is the main railway for the area.
 

dosxuk

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Network Rail were saying the economics of electrifying the entire MML were compelling back in the mid 2000's, yet we're still no closer to the wires appearing. I will be amazed if there are (mainline - ignore the trams!) trains powered from overheads in Sheffield in 10 years, I think even 15 years is pushing it.
 

GRALISTAIR

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Network Rail were saying the economics of electrifying the entire MML were compelling back in the mid 2000's, yet we're still no closer to the wires appearing. I will be amazed if there are (mainline - ignore the trams!) trains powered from overheads in Sheffield in 10 years, I think even 15 years is pushing it.
Dont forget a Grid connection at Kegworth has been applied for. Wires are slowly going up.
 

Nottingham59

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Network Rail were saying the economics of electrifying the entire MML were compelling back in the mid 2000's,
Yes they did, and they published the spreadsheet which made those calculations. But that's because they compared full electrification against retaining the diesels for 60 years. And half of the route, to Bedford, had already been wired.

So the calculations showed the benefit of 2tph electric trains to Sheffield and 2tph to Nottingham, set against just half the cost of electrifying the whole route. So very compelling. (Or so was assumed at the time. In the end, quite a lot of capital investement was needed south of Bedford).

But that calculation ignored bimodes. Comparing full electrification against bimodes, the financial case fell apart because the bimodes could exploit the OHLE to Bedford without any more capital investment. Which is why the MML project got binned at that time, and EMR now has 810s on order.

Looking ahead, I don't think the finances stack up for most of the MML, with only 4tph on most of the route. I have never seen any BCR calculations published for the present MML upgrade. It's certainly a political decision, rather than an economic one. So I wouldn't predict electrification from Derby to Dore. Certainly not while Cross County needs diesels to get to Plymouth, or until the HS2 Eastern stump gets built.

But I do think that the advent of bimode EMUs, and bimode freight locos; and the availability of Battery EMUs will make a compelling economic case for electrification at intensively used network nodes, where electric acceleration will increase capacity and Battery EMUs can recharge, all on the same relatively short length of wires. So I'm predicting Sheffield (i.e. Dore to Meadowhall) will get wires. But I agree, 10 years is a bit ambitious. Probably 15 is more likely. Time will tell!
 

Killingworth

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Yes they did, and they published the spreadsheet which made those calculations. But that's because they compared full electrification against retaining the diesels for 60 years. And half of the route, to Bedford, had already been wired.

So the calculations showed the benefit of 2tph electric trains to Sheffield and 2tph to Nottingham, set against just half the cost of electrifying the whole route. So very compelling. (Or so was assumed at the time. In the end, quite a lot of capital investement was needed south of Bedford).

But that calculation ignored bimodes. Comparing full electrification against bimodes, the financial case fell apart because the bimodes could exploit the OHLE to Bedford without any more capital investment. Which is why the MML project got binned at that time, and EMR now has 810s on order.

Looking ahead, I don't think the finances stack up for most of the MML, with only 4tph on most of the route. I have never seen any BCR calculations published for the present MML upgrade. It's certainly a political decision, rather than an economic one. So I wouldn't predict electrification from Derby to Dore. Certainly not while Cross County needs diesels to get to Plymouth, or until the HS2 Eastern stump gets built.

But I do think that the advent of bimode EMUs, and bimode freight locos; and the availability of Battery EMUs will make a compelling economic case for electrification at intensively used network nodes, where electric acceleration will increase capacity and Battery EMUs can recharge, all on the same relatively short length of wires. So I'm predicting Sheffield (i.e. Dore to Meadowhall) will get wires. But I agree, 10 years is a bit ambitious. Probably 15 is more likely. Time will tell!
I'm intrigued by the case for Dore to Sheffield, but apparently not Meadowhall to Doncaster - or infill to Leeds. I'd love to get a through electric train from Dore to Meadowhall taking 12 minutes.

Whatever, it will be bi-mode utilisation long after "electrification to Sheffield by 2030" has gone into the list of unfulfilled rail promises
 
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