Moorthorpe to Pontefract line traffic

[sheff'd victoria]

Apart from the twice daily Sheffield Midland - York service operated by Northern, what other traffic uses this section of line please ?

 

[YorkshireBear]

Apart from the twice daily Sheffield Midland - York service operated by Northern, what other traffic uses this section of line please ?

Well today i belive some Cross Country services are going that way, but im not sure they do anymore rest of the time. There used to be a late evening weekend service that went that way for crew knowledge. I think apart from that it is just freight.

 

[Waverley125]

in the grand scheme of things, if the idiots down south ever realise than connecting up Leeds, Sheffield and the two city regions would be a good idea, then I imagine the Dearne Valley line will see a lot more traffic. A half-hourly York-Sheffield stopper wouldn't go amiss, with a calling pattern of:

YORK, Dringhouses, Copmanthorpe, Colton, Ulleskelf, Church Fenton, Sherburn in Elmet, Monk Fryston, Ferrybridge, Pontefract Baghill, Ackworth, Moorthorpe, Thurnscoe, Goldthorpe, Bolton upon Dearne, Swinton, Rotherham Central, Meadowhall, SHEFFIELD

the line also has the potential for an hourly fast, calling at Meadowhall, Rotherham, Moorthorpe, Pontefract Baghill, & York only, which would probably be as quick a route as the much busier XC trains going via Leeds.

 

[billio]

Rather than run a stopping service from York to Sheffield through Pontefract, I think a more useful stopping service overall would be to run via Castleford, Normanton, Wakefield and Barnsley.

When TPE goes electric it might be a idea to run the diesel services from Scarborough and elsewhere on either this route and/or through Leeds to Bradford and on to Blackpool.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

The very southern tip of the line is also used by regular freight into Ferrybridge.

I think the track is in quite poor condition in parts and line speeds aren't brilliant, which is what holds it back - of course it is the shortest route between Sheffield and York.

Waverley125 appears to be doing their usual of reopening about 5 stations more than are justifiable - I fear opening so many halts would do serious damage to a business case and would significantly impact journey times. I also can't see where on earth the demand would be for 2 stoppers an hour - how many people need to be in York from Pontefract or Moorthorpe, or in Sheffield from the villages south of York? Surely the hourly fast would eat up a huge amount of demand in comparison?

 

[YorkshireBear]

The very southern tip of the line is also used by regular freight into Ferrybridge.

I think the track is in quite poor condition in parts and line speeds aren't brilliant, which is what holds it back - of course it is the shortest route between Sheffield and York.

Waverley125 appears to be doing their usual of reopening about 5 stations more than are justifiable - I fear opening so many halts would do serious damage to a business case and would significantly impact journey times. I also can't see where on earth the demand would be for 2 stoppers an hour - how many people need to be in York from Pontefract or Moorthorpe, or in Sheffield from the villages south of York? Surely the hourly fast would eat up a huge amount of demand in comparison?

A two hourly fast i belive would suffice, while hourly in peaks. Much better use of staff stock and funds.

 

[Eagle]

I think the track is in quite poor condition in parts and line speeds aren't brilliant, which is what holds it back - of course it is the shortest route between Sheffield and York.

Although, I think we worked this out in a thread a while back, the fastest route between Sheffield and York is via Doncaster.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Although, I think we worked this out in a thread a while back, the fastest route between Sheffield and York is via Doncaster.

Indeed, to get the Dearne Valley to match you'd need 20~ miles to be reasonably straight track cleared for 125mph, like the Doncaster route offers north of Donny. May I suggest the fact that XC are keen on all services running via Leeds in lieu of Doncaster suggest that the Leeds market is worth more than a fast Sheffield-York service?

 

[Eagle]

Although, I think we worked this out in a thread a while back, the fastest route between Sheffield and York is via Doncaster.

This thread, by the way.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

A two hourly fast i belive would suffice, while hourly in peaks. Much better use of staff stock and funds.

I think that's a lot more realistic too.

I'd like to ask Waverley125, why are you so eager to reopen so many stations? Surely building a seemingly infinite number of halts like you suggest nationwide is expensive and unnecessary, as the more there are on a line the more unviable they all become economically! Surely it's better in this case for Ponty Baghill, Church Fenton etc to act as railheads for the villages you propose stations for, with good size P&R facilities or a local bus / taxi connection. It's much cheaper and economical too!

 

[Bevan Price]

in the grand scheme of things, if the idiots down south ever realise than connecting up Leeds, Sheffield and the two city regions would be a good idea, then I imagine the Dearne Valley line will see a lot more traffic. A half-hourly York-Sheffield stopper wouldn't go amiss, with a calling pattern of:

YORK, Dringhouses, Copmanthorpe, Colton, Ulleskelf, Church Fenton, Sherburn in Elmet, Monk Fryston, Ferrybridge, Pontefract Baghill, Ackworth, Moorthorpe, Thurnscoe, Goldthorpe, Bolton upon Dearne, Swinton, Rotherham Central, Meadowhall, SHEFFIELD

the line also has the potential for an hourly fast, calling at Meadowhall, Rotherham, Moorthorpe, Pontefract Baghill, & York only, which would probably be as quick a route as the much busier XC trains going via Leeds.

Dringhouses probably too close to York to be useful.
Copmanthorpe used to have a station - seems to be more housing than there used to be, so maybe a park/ride station possibility at some time in the future ?
Colton - why? Very little housing near the line.
Ulleskelf & Church Fenton - local population does not seem very high. I doubt that either would get a station if they were building the line today.
Ferrybridge used to have a station.
Ackworth also used to have a station, but a bit far from the main populated areas.

As others comment, a semi-fast service, mostly every 2 hours, might be the best prospect, together with a reopened Rotherham Masborough, to give Rotherham an improved service northwards. (I don't think Rotherham Central has line capacity for many more trains.)

Calling pattern might something like Sheffield - Meadowhall - Masborough - Swinton - Moorthorpe - Pontefract - York, maybe with additional peak hour stops at one or two other stations ? It might help loadings improve if this service could link into the York - Harrogate - Leeds service, or take over York - Scarborough when TP electrification is complete.

 

[yorksrob]

Rather than run a stopping service from York to Sheffield through Pontefract, I think a more useful stopping service overall would be to run via Castleford, Normanton, Wakefield and Barnsley.

We'll, I'd use that.

 

[Waverley125]

Dringhouses probably too close to York to be useful.
Copmanthorpe used to have a station - seems to be more housing than there used to be, so maybe a park/ride station possibility at some time in the future ?
Colton - why? Very little housing near the line.
Ulleskelf & Church Fenton - local population does not seem very high. I doubt that either would get a station if they were building the line today.
Ferrybridge used to have a station.
Ackworth also used to have a station, but a bit far from the main populated areas.

As others comment, a semi-fast service, mostly every 2 hours, might be the best prospect, together with a reopened Rotherham Masborough, to give Rotherham an improved service northwards. (I don't think Rotherham Central has line capacity for many more trains.)

Dringhouses & Copmanthorpe both serve flows into York-a city renowned for its awfu public transport system. Given both are reasonably affluent, I can see them working well.

Colton serves the villages of Bolton Percy, Appleton Roebuck, with a combined population of around 1000. These are borderline cases, I think they'd be good ideas, but, meh.

However, stations at Ferrybridge and Ackworth are not. Ferryrbridge serves Knottingley, Ferrybridge & Brotherton-population around 15,000. Similarly, Ackworth has a population of 6,500.

While half-hourly might be excessive, hourly certainly isn't. One train calling everywhere, and one only at Ferrybridge, Pontefract, Ackworth, Rotherham and Meadowhall certainly would work fine.

As for serving Castleford-it already has direct trains to Sheffield, Pontefract doesn't.

 

[tbtc]

Given that any Sheffield - York service has the option of the fast route via Doncaster or tapping into the busy Leeds market its no wonder that the Pontefract line gets such a poor service - it's really only served because you can run a couple of return trips each day by using a DMU that would be sat idle at Sheffield otherwise.

Other than Pontefract there's nowhere sizeable served (I like the idea of turning Swinton into a kind of "Dearne Valley Parkway, but that doesn't need the Pontefract trains to happen - nor does a train station by the Park And Ride Tesco at Copmanthorpe outside York).

Maybe the reason it's so badly served is nothing to do with "the idiots down south" and has a lot to do with population (or lack of!). If Pontefract gets a better train service then the priority would be an improvement in the hourly Leeds service (maybe by extending the "other" Leeds - Castleford service each hour to Pontefract and Knottingley since there's precious little demand to travel from Leeds to Wakefield/ Barnsley via Castleford).

But, no, we're going down the route of arguing for lots of new stations on an empty line again...

 

[yorksrob]

(maybe by extending the "other" Leeds - Castleford service each hour to Pontefract and Knottingley since there's precious little demand to travel from Leeds to Wakefield/ Barnsley via Castleford).

But, no, we're going down the route of arguing for lots of new stations on an empty line again...

I take it you'd be stopping the fast trains in Normy then

That said, from my personal observations, Castleford seems to get a fair number of passengers from points South on that route, so I think that they would miss the service.

 

[tbtc]

from my personal observations, Castleford seems to get a fair number of passengers from points South on that route, so I think that they would miss the service

You'd keep a Sheffield - Barnsley - Wakefield - Castleford service, just terminate it at Castleford (and use the path from Castleford to Leeds for an additional Knottingley/ Pontefract service - which would be of far more use to Pontefract than a half hourly York service).

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

This line probably has a role to play in HS2 NE planning.
Along with the old North Midland/Y&NM route (Swinton-Normanton-Castleford-Burton Salmon-Church Fenton).

 

[YorkshireBear]

This line probably has a role to play in HS2 NE planning.
Along with the old North Midland/Y&NM route (Swinton-Normanton-Castleford-Burton Salmon-Church Fenton).

It doesn't really, the route isn't in the right place to be used by HS2 for any part. Not without increased cost that is uneccesary and playing with several power station access routes.

 

[Frothy]

Well, stations at Copmanthorpe and Dringhouses would be nice, but very unlikely according to this article from 2004. Or has much changed since then? It's unfortunate in this context that after the re-routing of the ECML it joins the Leeds-York line south of Copmanthorpe instead of north of it.

 

[Waverley125]

The Hallam/Pontefract lines are probably one of the key routes in West Yorkshire, given the number of places it links together.

The problem is that the reversal at Castleford makes operation south of Methley Junction problematic. The route needs developing, both east of Knottingley out to Goole, and south of Knottingley, to Doncaster.

Three upgrades would make a lot of difference. Firstly, reinstating the Methley Junc-Glasshoughton direct line, meaning trains for Pontefract would not have to reverse into Castleford, hugely speeding up journey times into Leeds. The second would be building a West-South chord from the line east of Castleford to the Dearne Valley line. The third would be the extension of Knottingley station, and the re-opening of the 'Askern' Knottingley-Doncaster line.

Leaving an end result of Three corridors of trains serving the 5 towns:

1) Leeds-Methley Junc-Castleford-Knottingley-Goole

2) Leeds-Methley Junc-Glasshoughton-Pontefract-Knottingley-Doncaster

3) Leeds-Methley Junc-Castleford-Pontefract-Featherstone-Wakefield-Leeds

would also facilitate Huddersfield-York & Huddersfield-Goole via Wakefield

 

[yorksrob]

You'd keep a Sheffield - Barnsley - Wakefield - Castleford service, just terminate it at Castleford (and use the path from Castleford to Leeds for an additional Knottingley/ Pontefract service - which would be of far more use to Pontefract than a half hourly York service).

I'd go with that, as long as they stop the fast train to Leeds at Normy.

 

[billio]

As for serving Castleford-it already has direct trains to Sheffield, Pontefract doesn't.

I was thinking more of the opportunities for travelers from Barnsley, Wakefield and Castleford gaining direct access to York in order to get north as well as for people in York and north of York getting the same access south to places like Meadowhall.

Also, when TPE goes electric I think it makes sense to put the remaining diesel trains on to new routes that are not electrified. In the future I think Yorkshire rail services should be developed more in terms of a network rather than everything going through Leeds. This isn't a question of rail company profitability, it is an issue of making a better transport infrastructure in the area which benefits more places than just Leeds.

Having said this, I am not against more services going though Pontefract as well.

 

[sheff'd victoria]

in the grand scheme of things, if the idiots down south ever realise than connecting up Leeds, Sheffield and the two city regions would be a good idea, then I imagine the Dearne Valley line will see a lot more traffic. A half-hourly York-Sheffield stopper wouldn't go amiss, with a calling pattern of:

YORK, Dringhouses, Copmanthorpe, Colton, Ulleskelf, Church Fenton, Sherburn in Elmet, Monk Fryston, Ferrybridge, Pontefract Baghill, Ackworth, Moorthorpe, Thurnscoe, Goldthorpe, Bolton upon Dearne, Swinton, Rotherham Central, Meadowhall, SHEFFIELD

the line also has the potential for an hourly fast, calling at Meadowhall, Rotherham, Moorthorpe, Pontefract Baghill, & York only, which would probably be as quick a route as the much busier XC trains going via Leeds.

Does anyone know if it is a cheaper ticket from say Sheffield Midland to York via Moorthorpe then via EC & Doncaster ?

 

[ainsworth74]

No it's the same price.

 

[sheff'd victoria]

No it's the same price.

Thanks for that, that does surprise me as I would have thought a train not going via the ECML would have been cheaper

 

[Deerfold]

Thanks for that, that does surprise me as I would have thought a train not going via the ECML would have been cheaper

For quite a few flows (E.G. Sheffield - Leeds) that's true - there's any ANY PERMITTED and a NOT DONCASTER fare. but not for Sheffield to York.

 

[Frothy]

Sitting at Durham station eating fish and chips earlier, facing the departure screen, I noticed an XC train heading for BHM calling Darlington, York, Sheffield, Derby and BHM only. Curious as to why it wasn't calling at Leeds or Donny, I looked it up.

So it turns out the Su 1821 NCL to BHM runs via this line after all. Couldn't find it on PSUL though.

 

[IanXC]

The are a series of Sunday engineeering works between Colton and Hambleton Junctions, requiring diversions like the one you've mentioned. East Coast are generally diverted via Askern, and GC via Hambleton East and South.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Ulleskelf & Church Fenton - local population does not seem very high. I doubt that either would get a station if they were building the line today.

There has been an amount of new house building in the area of Church Fenton railway station, which still has four platforms, but I am unsure if the local development plan has any further land usage changes still to be enacted to allow further development.

 

[Frothy]

The are a series of Sunday engineeering works between Colton and Hambleton Junctions, requiring diversions like the one you've mentioned. East Coast are generally diverted via Askern, and GC via Hambleton East and South.

Ah well, never mind.