My idea for Transpennine Expansion

[Waverley125]

with TPX potentially being re-incorporated into Northern in the next set of franchising (if we get them any time soon), what does the future hold for TPX's routes?

Personally I think there's definitely a market, post electrification, for upping the service from Leeds to Manchester to 6tph, and for increasing services on South TP between Manchester & Sheffield to 2-3tph.

So what will we/should we, see?

On North Transpennine:

1tph Newcastle-Liverpool Lime St:
Durham, Darlington, York, Leeds, Huddersfield, Manchester Victoria, Liverpool Lime St

1tph Newcastle-Manchester Airport:
Chester le Street, Durham, Darlington, Northallerton, Thirsk, York, Leeds, Huddersfield, Manchester Victoria, Manchester Oxford Rd, Manchester Piccadilly, Manchester Airport

1tph Hull-Liverpool Lime St:

Brough, Selby, Leeds, Huddersfield, Manchester Victoria, Newton le Willows, St Helens Junction, Liverpool Lime St

1tph Hull-Holyhead:

Selby, Leeds, Huddersfield, Manchester Victoria, Warrington Bank Quay, Runcorn East, Chester, Rhyl, Llandudno Junction, Bangor, Holyhead

1tph Middlesbrough-Manchester Airport:

Middlesbrough, Yarm, Northallerton, Thirsk, York, Leeds, Huddersfield, Victoria, Oxford Rd, Piccadilly, Airport

1tph Sunderland-Shrewsbury:

Hartlepool, Stockton, Middlesbrough, Yarm, Northallerton, York, Leeds, Huddersfield, Manchester Victoria, Warrington Bank Quay, Crewe, Nantwich, Whitchurch, Shrewsbury

 

[northwichcat]

Middlesbrough, Hull and Scarborough all may be excluded from electrification and Sunderland and Shrewsbury certainly aren't included in any plans at present, while the North Wales Coast is only an optimistic proposal.

Although, in evaluating the cost:benefit ratio of TPE electrification Network Rail have used 4tph express on Victoria-Huddersfield-Leeds and 2tph semi-fast on Piccadilly-Huddersfield-Leeds/Selby.

 

[Gareth Marston]

West of Penine's theirs Southport/Wigan or Ellesmere Port or Wrexham to consider.

Integrating the N Wales Coast/Chester- Manchester services into Trans Penine Express is sensible as its a better us of capacity in Manchester, problem being the lack of wires.

 

[Deerfold]

Is the plan for all the TPE services to start using Manchester Victoria?

 

[northwichcat]

Is the plan for all the TPE services to start using Manchester Victoria?

No. The proposed 2014 timetable is for Piccadilly to keep 4 and an additional one to go from Victoria. Long term the plan is for 6tph with:

2/6 to use Victoria only
2/6 to use Piccadilly and Victoria (Airport services)
2/6 to use Piccadilly only (which are likely to be the only ones with Stalybridge and Dewsbury calls.)

 

[Class83]

Making sure that all the trains are 6 carriages long (between Liverpool-Leeds/Sheffield) would be more likely/useful. Will the return of the units used on the Manchester-Scotland route allow this or can this not happen until more electric units are ordered for the actual TransPennine routes?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Making sure that all the trains are 6 carriages long (between Liverpool-Leeds/Sheffield) would be more likely/useful. Will the return of the units used on the Manchester-Scotland route allow this or can this not happen until more electric units are ordered for the actual TransPennine routes?

Aren't the released 185s going on a new fifth train per hour over the Pennines between Liverpool and York or similar? In that case, I would say that yes you would need even more 185s or similar from somewhere.

 

[Jonny]

Is the plan for all the TPE services to start using Manchester Victoria?

Under the Northern Hub proposals (IIRC) the plan is to have trains go to both Victoria and Piccadilly; the Ashton route is pretty fast anyway and might be even faster with only minimal work to raise the line speed.

 

[Deerfold]

Under the Northern Hub proposals (IIRC) the plan is to have trains go to both Victoria and Piccadilly; the Ashton route is pretty fast anyway and might be even faster with only minimal work to raise the line speed.

I was just wondering why the OP had them all going to both.

 

[tbtc]

Starts off sensibly (six/ hour on the northern TPE line looks to be happening), but...

Middlesbrough and Hull get a half hourly service to Manchester whilst Scarborough gets none?

Plenty of DMUs running long distances under the wires (like Northallerton - Manchester Airport)?

Sunderland to Shrewsbury?

 

[Waverley125]

I would add that this would be in the extent wires went up to some parts of the TP network....I honestly can't see that happening, while I definitely can on Teeside & the Durham Coast.

As for half-hourly Leeds-Hull, I think that's perfectly reasonable, although there is an argument for terminating one at Leeds and running a much slower calling pattern (Garforth, Selby, Howden, Brough, North Ferriby, Hessle)

As for going into Piccadilly, I'm unsure of the benefits here. While the TP line really needs four lines as much as possible, I'd like to see half-hourly stoppers on both Leeds-Huddersfield (all stations) and Huddersfield-Manchester (all stations to Guide Bridge).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Oh, and South Transpennine:

1tph Cleethorpes-Liverpool Lime Steet:

Grimsby Town, Scunthorpe, Doncaster, Rotherham Central, Meadowhall, Sheffield, Stockport, Manchester Piccadilly, Manchester Oxford Road, Birchwood, Warrington Central, Widnes, Liverpool South Parkway

1tph Cleethorpes-Manchester Airport

Grimsby Town, Barnetby, Scunthorpe, Thorne South, Doncaster, Rotherham Central, Meadowhall, Sheffield, Stockport, Manchester Piccadilly, Manchester Airport

1tph Lincoln-Blackpool North

Gainsborough Lea Road, Retford, Worksop, Sheffield, Stockport, Manchester Piccadilly, Manchester Oxford Road, Bolton, Horwich Parkway, Preston, Poulton le Fylde, Blackpool North

1tph Hull-Manchester Airport

Brough, Goole, Thorne North, Doncaster, Rotherham Central, Meadowhall, Sheffield, Stockport, Manchester Piccadilly, Manchester Airport

 

[johnnychips]

Don't stop at Rotherham Central please. We've had this argument on another thread somewhere.

 

[yorkie]

Don't stop at Rotherham Central please. We've had this argument on another thread somewhere.

Indeed we have!

If anyone wishes to argue for or against or discuss any of the issues regarding TPE possibly calling at Rotherham, there is a thead here dedicated for that purpose

 

[apk55]

Perhaps some bi mode (diesel and electric) units could be considered (as per GW electrification) for running the service. Places such as Middlesbough, Scarborough and North Wales could be served by these units. Need not be as powerfull on diesel as the none electrified sections are generaly slower or not steeply graded.

 

[Aictos]

As this is just fantasy I rather see Grand Central run a daily service from Kings Cross to Blackpool either as a extension of a Bradford Interchange service or a new service which uses a different route if possible.

Least then if it proves to be popular regardless of the time needed to undergo such a journey then the powers to be could look at potential TOCs on the WCML being able to operate directly from Blackpool to Euston as it's probably quicker to use the WCML.

I mean the train wouldn't have to stop at all the Northern served stations between Bradford Interchange and Blackpool, just Preston to offer interchange opportunities for Blackpool South.

Now back to TPE, I support a Liverpool Lime Street to Newcastle service which would be good for business

 

[YorkshireBear]

Cleethorpes does not need 2tph to Manchester. And i dont think south TPE can take 4tph as it is. Very optimistic, infact i think unrealistically optimistic. I would like to see Lincoln Liverpool as a TPE service, mainly as a way of giving Lincoln a better servcice to Sheffield.

 

[northwichcat]

And i dont think south TPE can take 4tph as it is.

One proposal being looked at by Network Rail involves 4 fast trains per hour between Manchester and Sheffield but they would be running as portions so there would only be two departures an hour from Sheffield from Manchester but possibly half-hourly services to both Liverpool and Manchester Airport.

 

[DeeGee]

A train before 9.30 from Grimsby Town to anywhere on a Sunday would be wonderful. Ideally early enough for the whole day not to be wasted.

2tph from Cleethorpes would be nice.

 

[tbtc]

Cleethorpes does not need 2tph to Manchester

I don't know whether there's a case for extending the Lincoln/ Sheffield/ Doncaster - Scunthorpe stopper to Cleethorpes to provide a second train an hour to the seaside (albeit slower than the current TPE one), but as there's no spare DMUs for such a move it's just speculation.

 

[Waverley125]

I would have thought it's possible to get 4tph plus the EMT Norwich-Liverpool and an hourly Sheffield-Manchester Piccadilly stopper through the Hope Valley, which is the only severely constrained corridor I can think of.

Other than that, I think there is a good market for 2tph Cleethorpes-Sheffield, and certainly there is Hull-Sheffield. The thing is that, once you start putting in multiple semi-fast services, there's really very little point in reversing them when you can join up services & provide better connections.

Of course, the other way to increase services to Hull would be to bring it back onto the XC map, but that's another story for another day.

In short, I think we can agree that, in the east of TPX we have Sunderland, Newcastle, Middlesbrough, Hull, Cleethorpes, Lincoln and maybe Scarborough as places we want to serve. In the west we have Liverpool, Holyhead, Shrewsbury, Blackpool, Manchester Airport, Windermere and Southport. TPX should be re-organised so as to connect these to each other.

so, something like

2tph NW/WC-Airport (Blackpool & Edinburgh/Glasgow)
2tph TPN-Airport
2tph TPS-Airport

2tph TPN-Liverpool
1tph TPS-Liverpool (with EMT it's effectively 2tph from Sheffield)

giving us:

Leeds-Manchester: 6tph
Manchester-Liverpool: 4tph*
Sheffield-Manchester: 4tph

* I think a semi-fast, half-hourly service from Lime St to Airport via Warrington (South Parkway, Widnes, Warrington, Birchwood, Irlam, Deansgate, Oxford Road, Piccadilly, Airport) is also potentially a good idea.

 

[Geargrinder]

Cleethorpes does not need 2tph to Manchester. And i dont think south TPE can take 4tph as it is. Very optimistic, infact i think unrealistically optimistic. I would like to see Lincoln Liverpool as a TPE service, mainly as a way of giving Lincoln a better servcice to Sheffield.

What about 2tph from Cleethorpes. 1 to Liverpool via Lincoln. 1 to Manchester via Scunthorpe/Doncaster ?

 

[tbtc]

I would have thought it's possible to get 4tph plus the EMT Norwich-Liverpool and an hourly Sheffield-Manchester Piccadilly stopper through the Hope Valley

Given how many stops there are on the Northern service and the large amount of freight (running through the Hope Valley as well as running specifically to the cement place at Hope)... no.

 

[cuccir]

Are we all presuming that the Cumbrian routes will be chopped into branch services to Lancaster/Preston only?

 

[Lampshade]

Liverpool Lime Street - Skegness:

Liverpool Lime Street > St Helens Junction > Manchester Victoria > Todmorden > Hebden Bridge > Wakefield Kirkgate > Doncaster > Gainsborough Lea Road > Lincoln > Sleaford > Boston > Skegness

 

[tbtc]

Are we all presuming that the Cumbrian routes will be chopped into branch services to Lancaster/Preston only?

IIRC the post-electrification plans suggested that Barrow's service to Manchester would be reduced to something like Windermere currently has (i.e. a peak working to Manchester and a return working for "day trippers", with corresponding afternoon workings, so allowing people to commute into Manchester for an eight hour day whilst also giving reasonable times for Mancunians to have a day out in Cumbria).

(with other Barrow services terminating at Lancaster/ Preston)

 

[northwichcat]

IIRC the post-electrification plans suggested that Barrow's service to Manchester would be reduced to something like Windermere currently has (i.e. a peak working to Manchester and a return working for "day trippers", with corresponding afternoon workings, so allowing people to commute into Manchester for an eight hour day whilst also giving reasonable times for Mancunians to have a day out in Cumbria).

(with other Barrow services terminating at Lancaster/ Preston)

I don't think there are any firm post electrification plans for Barrow at the moment. The proposed May 2014 timetable shows 5tpd in each direction between Manchester and Barrow (with one train in either direction not serving the Airport.) There's currently 9 tpd northbound but not as many southbound. The local MP expressed concerns that he thought it would be reduced further after Manchester-Bolton-Preston electrification.

 

[Waverley125]

the other option would be to go half-hourly on the Hull-Sheffield fasts, which probably could be sustained.

As for the whole 'stop in Rotherham' thing, I'm a big advocate of re-opening Masborough. Yes, it's a fair step from the City Centre, but it's better people are going there than meadowhall, in terms of the benefits to Rotherham as a town.