My idea to extend the London Bridge - Epsom service to Guildford every hour

[PTR 444]

Home working has reduced the demand for travel from the Surrey commuter belt to Central London, and one area that is particularly noticeable is around Epsom. Pre-Covid, there were 4tph from London Waterloo to Leatherhead, with half of those continuing to Dorking and the other half continuing to Guildford via Bookham. There were also London Victoria - Epsom stoppers, which allowed the Dorking/Horsham via Mitcham trains to be sped up.

With fewer trains now than there were 5 years ago, I’m wondering whether it would be worth reintroducing a direct West Croydon - Guildford service to reflect post-Covid travel patterns and fill the gap between Leatherhead and Guildford, which now only has 1tph.

My idea would be to extend the xx25 London Bridge - Epsom service to Guildford, since this is the best you can get to an even interval service at Bookham without a full recast (ex Waterloo train departs Epsom at xx28, while ex London Bridge arrives at xx08, so could depart at xx09 or xx10). In the opposite direction, it would make sense to extend the xx45 Epsom - London Bridge service back to Guildford since the existing Guildford - Waterloo arrives in Epsom at xx18, allowing for a much more evenly spaced timetable. The newly extended service would therefore depart Guildford around xx13ish.

I guest the biggest concern would be conflicting moves at Effingham Junction in the up direction, although my workings out suggest that my proposed Guildford - London Bridge service would depart Effingham Junction around xx29ish, and there aren’t any trains in the down direction between xx19 and xx45. This is only for the daytime though. I would need to do separate workings out for morning and evening peak hours as times vary then, although in an ideal world it would be nice if the entire South London commuter belt followed an all-day Taktplan.

Also as part of this plan, I would consider relocating Bookham station closer to the centre of Fetcham, since the existing station is quite some distance from most of the urban area. The existing Bookham station could then close, or stay open with a reduced frequency if there is still a need for it in addition to Fetcham.

To summarise, this would be the calling pattern of the proposed extended service, starting from London Bridge:

Norwood Junction
West Croydon
Waddon
Wallington
Carshalton Beeches
Sutton
Cheam
Ewell East
Epsom
Ashtead
Leatherhead
Fetcham (new station)
Bookham?
Effingham Junction
Horsley
Clandon
London Road (Guildford)
GUILDFORD

Saying that, Horsley and Clandon probably don’t need more than 3tph, so this train could potentially skip those stations. The aim of this service is to make travel easier between Guildford and Croydon, while filling a gap in an area which has been hit disproportionately hard by the impact of Covid-19 and home working.

 

[devon_belle]

I agree that Fetcham is well-sited for a station. I wouldn't close Bookham though, as this will still be better for Great Bookham.

As for more services in the area: the people of Ashtead and Leatherhead will most likely appreciate more trains, although I wager they would prefer more Waterloo trains (or faster Victoria ones).

The whole area is in need of more trains and some peak semi-fasts to attract back commuters. Being so close to London, the journey times to a terminal are dire from Epsom.

All this said, Southern probably doesn't have the units to spare.

 

[PTR 444]

I agree that Fetcham is well-sited for a station. I wouldn't close Bookham though, as this will still be better for Great Bookham.

Fair point. Gives more options for the local area. I can't understand why Fetcham never had a station in the first place.

As for more services in the area: the people of Ashtead and Leatherhead will most likely appreciate more trains, although I wager they would prefer more Waterloo trains (or faster Victoria ones).

Definitely agree. Even in post-pandemic times, 4tph is rather dire for Leatherhead, especially with the trains taking so long to get anywhere

The whole area is in need of more trains and some peak semi-fasts to attract back commuters. Being so close to London, the journey times to a terminal are dire from Epsom.

Agreed. It's unfortunate that Epsom and Leatherhead are not situated on a main line, otherwise they could benefit from being served by limited stop expresses.

All this said, Southern probably doesn't have the units to spare.

That's probably the biggest barrier holding back my proposal. An alternative could be to reinstate the pre-covid 4tph from Waterloo to Leatherhead with 2tph continuing to Guildford and 2tph to Dorking. At least that gives Worcester Park - Ewell West a much better service, while hopefully shortening transfer times at Epsom for anyone travelling Guildford - Croydon.

 

[PGAT]

Southern have no more stock especially after December so 4tph on SWR will have to suffice when the 701s finally commence. Perhaps the pre-covid Epsom terminators could be extended to Guildford to compensate for the lack of London Bridge service if needed?

 

[PTR 444]

Southern have no more stock especially after December so 4tph on SWR will have to suffice when the 701s finally commence. Perhaps the pre-covid Epsom terminators could be extended to Guildford to compensate for the lack of London Bridge service if needed?

It would make sense for all SWR Epsom services to continue to Dorking or Guildford, ideally at double the frequency of now.

I wonder if some Waterloo - Epsom trains could be sped up by running non-stop to Worcester Park, or only calling at Clapham Junction and Wimbledon?

 

[30907]

I wonder if some Waterloo - Epsom trains could be sped up by running non-stop to Worcester Park, or only calling at Clapham Junction and Wimbledon?

Running fast inward from Raynes Park is difficult. The only station you can reasonably skip is Earlsfield (maybe Raynes Park, but skipping it is hardly worth it with the 20mph junction).
I agree the area doesn't do brilliantly for train services.

 

[PGAT]

although I wager they would prefer more Waterloo trains (or faster Victoria ones).

Looking at passenger flow statistics you would be correct. Waterloo beats Victoria from Ashtead and Leatherhead by an order of magnitude annually

 

[PTR 444]

Running fast inward from Raynes Park is difficult. The only station you can reasonably skip is Earlsfield (maybe Raynes Park, but skipping it is hardly worth it with the 20mph junction).
I agree the area doesn't do brilliantly for train services.

It's a shame really, since the Epsom area did quite well for service provision before the pandemic decimated commuter numbers.

When fast Victoria - Sutton - Epsom trains operated, were they quicker from Clapham Junction to Epsom than the Waterloo trains?

 

[devon_belle]

Running fast inward from Raynes Park is difficult. The only station you can reasonably skip is Earlsfield (maybe Raynes Park, but skipping it is hardly worth it with the 20mph junction).
I agree the area doesn't do brilliantly for train services.

Travelling this line at various times of the day semi-regularly post-covid, I don't see it being acceptable to skip any of the stations (except possibly Earlsfield as you said).

I doubt there is much room on the SWR metro for more trains, especially ones that skip stops. Nightmare!

 

[30907]

When fast Victoria - Sutton - Epsom trains operated, were they quicker from Clapham Junction to Epsom than the Waterloo trains?

No. A train calling Sutton only would just about match the all-stations time via Wimbledon.

 

[PTR 444]

No. A train calling Sutton only would just about match the all-stations time via Wimbledon.

Interesting, so really the only station that benefitted from the faster service was Sutton.

It would be good if Sutton got its fast Victoria trains back, but I can’t see much point in them continuing to Epsom if they will still be slower than the Waterloo trains. Perhaps they could continue to Epsom Downs instead, with the existing services via West Croydon curtailed at Sutton or Belmont.

 

[devon_belle]

It would be good if Sutton got its fast Victoria trains back, but I can’t see much point in them continuing to Epsom if they will still be slower than the Waterloo trains. Perhaps they could continue to Epsom Downs instead, with the existing services via West Croydon curtailed at Sutton or Belmont.

I think if Sutton is to get fast trains back, it should be as part of the semi-fast Victoria to Horsham/Dorking. The stations between Sutton and Balham definitely deserve a good service to Victoria, which should come from re-introducing the Victoria-Epsom stoppers (once stock is not an issue), rather than adding new services that go fast to Sutton but do not benefit any stations beyond. The people of Sutton should get their 'fast' service in the form of speeding up the longer-distance services from further down the Mole Valley line.

The SWR trains accelerate noticeably faster. These are still mostly worked by Class 455s – how do 450/458/701 fare in terms of keeping up with these timings? The Southern services feel really slow in comparison, possibly due to additional speed restrictions, slower acceleration & door cycles, and more timetable slack. Even in the absence of new stock, could tighter timetables and more heavy-footed driving save some valuable minutes into London from various Surrey commuter towns?

 

[Thebaz]

No. A train calling Sutton only would just about match the all-stations time via Wimbledon.

It used to have a long dwell time at Sutton, something like 9 minutes which to my mind completely obviated the point of running fast.

 

[cle]

A Wimbledon - Worcester Park -Epsom pattern would be a winner, but only on top of a 4tph service, so likely only worthwhile for a few peak extras.

 

[PTR 444]

I think the elephant in the room with both Sutton and Epsom are that they aren’t en route to a major destination by rail (like Brighton, Portsmouth etc), so have to suffice with local stopping services that only just extend outside the M25. This can be an issue for anyone commuting to Sutton that lives away from the Mole Valley Line, since they will almost certainly need a car for the first part of the journey but cannot afford to pay ULEZ, so have no choice but to use Dorking or Leatherhead as a railhead. Even if they lived somewhere with a station such as Woking or Sevenoaks, commuting by train would require going into Central London to come back out again, making a short hop along the M25 almost certainly quicker.

Introducing a direct Sutton - Guildford service would alleviate this issue somewhat, as it would provide more direct railheads for Sutton and make it easier to commute from anywhere along the Portsmouth Direct Line.

 

[Magdalia]

One aspect not mentioned here yet is connections from/to Thameslink.

Quite a lot of my rail travelling is between the Fens and the Leatherhead/Dorking area. At present those journeys always need at least 2 changes, at Blackfriars or London Bridge then again at Sutton or Epsom. For me both Victoria and Waterloo are irrelevant.

The London Bridge-Epsom service is a post covid development. They already run on the fast lines between New Cross Gate and Norwood Junction, sharing the tracks with Thameslink. My view is that these should become Thameslink trains, coming through the core and also going beyond Epsom to Dorking or Guildford.

 

[30907]

It used to have a long dwell time at Sutton, something like 9 minutes which to my mind completely obviated the point of running fast.

Can't find that in the last pre-Covid t/t (May 20/Dec 19) and it sounds pretty unlikely IMHO as Sutton's main platforms are rather busy. Can you clarify please?

 

[devon_belle]

My view is that these should become Thameslink trains, coming through the core and also going beyond Epsom to Dorking or Guildford.

Do you think 8 car trains would be appropriate for this service? Alternatively, would 12 cars be sufficiently accommodated in stations? I don't believe they are at Epsom, nor Boxhill & Westhumble?

 

[Magdalia]

Do you think 8 car trains would be appropriate for this service? Alternatively, would 12 cars be sufficiently accommodated in stations? I don't believe they are at Epsom, nor Boxhill & Westhumble?

Yes. I was thinking 8 cars, preferably released by not going to Rainham.

Southern do operate 10 car trains on this route, so 12 cars might be feasible. One other place I'd add to the questionable list is Ashtead, because of the level crossing.

 

[JonathanH]

Do you think 8 car trains would be appropriate for this service?

They are 8-car trains with more standing space though.

 

[PGAT]

Can't find that in the last pre-Covid t/t (May 20/Dec 19) and it sounds pretty unlikely IMHO as Sutton's main platforms are rather busy. Can you clarify please?

It was the setup before May 2018 timetable change afterwards they removed that dwell time and added a stop at Carshalton

Do you think 8 car trains would be appropriate for this service? Alternatively, would 12 cars be sufficiently accommodated in stations? I don't believe they are at Epsom, nor Boxhill & Westhumble?

All the intermediate stations have short platforms but Dorking may be able to turn around a 12 car train?

 

[devon_belle]

One other place I'd add to the questionable list is Ashtead, because of the level crossing.

I think it would be relatively straightforward to extend the platforms in this case. The others, less so.

They are 8-car trains with more standing space though.

True, but it's a long time to stand! But I'm not sure what the current loadings are like beyond Sutton, so it might not matter. Good to account for future growth though. Shame there's no 10-car 700s.

Further to OP's suggestion, don't Horsham have Thameslink drivers? Given that passing from Horsham to Dorking is almost impossible on Saturday evening and Sunday, it may make sense to extend this hypothetical Thameslink service from Dorking to Horsham. It could even take over the small stops, like on the Arun Valley, although they also have quite short platforms.

On the other hand, the denizens of Guildford may appreciate a connection to the Thameslink network...

Looking even further into the future (crayons well and truly out), what would the interface between this hypothetical service and Crossrail 2 be?

All the intermediate stations have short platforms but Dorking may be able to turn around a 12 car train?

I think it can fit 12.

 

[Magdalia]

Class 700s do have selective door opening. For example 12 car trains stop at 8 car platforms at Baldock and Ashwell and Morden.

But a 12 car class 700 does need a 12 car platform where it reverses.

don't Horsham have Thameslink drivers?

Yes, they drive the Peterborough trains via Redhill. And they are 12 cars.

 

[JonathanH]

On the other hand, the denizens of Guildford may appreciate a connection to the Thameslink network...

Even if they do, going via West Croydon isn't the way to do it though.

 

[devon_belle]

Even if they do, going via West Croydon isn't the way to do it though.

Agreed. Via SWML or North Downs? I suspect the former.

 

[miklcct]

Epsom and Sutton now both have extremely poor services because there are multiple routes to different London terminals, but every one is only operating every half an hour, which means you always need to face a long wait wherever you want to go.

My suggestion to improve the service is to reduce the number of different routes, and operate a turn up and go service (every 15 minutes or less) on the fastest route to a London Terminal, which means:

- Restoring 4 trains per hour from Epsom to Waterloo.
- Either increase the Sutton loop Thameslink to 4 trains per hour, making it the primary route, or restoring 4 trains per hour between Epsom and Victoria (via Mitcham Junction).

In either case, separate Epsom to London Bridge trains should cease to exist as the route is circuitous, and Epsom to Croydon should be served by extending existing trains terminating at West Croydon to Epsom for local passengers.

When a turn-up-and-go fastest route exists, most passengers can just blindly wait for the fastest route to access London, unless they specifically require a specific station served by the other trains, unlike the currently situation where a passenger needs to guess which route to use beforehand, and faces a long wait if the guess is wrong.

 

[PTR 444]

Epsom and Sutton now both have extremely poor services because there are multiple routes to different London terminals, but every one is only operating every half an hour, which means you always need to face a long wait wherever you want to go.

I agree they both have poor services, but the fact that they have multiple routes to different London terminals isn’t really a problem as such.

My suggestion to improve the service is to reduce the number of different routes, and operate a turn up and go service (every 15 minutes or less) on the fastest route to a London Terminal, which means:

It’s a nice idea, but just isn’t practical everywhere in London for a magnitude of reasons.

- Restoring 4 trains per hour from Epsom to Waterloo.

This I do agree with.

- Either increase the Sutton loop Thameslink to 4 trains per hour, making it the primary route, or restoring 4 trains per hour between Epsom and Victoria (via Mitcham Junction).

The problem with making Thameslink the primary route is that you lose the direct link between Sutton and Clapham Junction, which is vital for connectivity to places west of London.

You can restore 4tph between Sutton and Victoria via Mitcham without having to alter Thameslink, as it was pre-Covid.

In either case, separate Epsom to London Bridge trains should cease to exist as the route is circuitous, and Epsom to Croydon should be served by extending existing trains terminating at West Croydon to Epsom for local passengers.

I disagree. London Bridge is convenient for the city business district and the fastest reached terminal from Carshalton Beeches, Wallington and Waddon. It is just as quick to reach London Bridge from Sutton as it is Victoria, and somewhat quicker than Thameslink to Blackfriars.

When a turn-up-and-go fastest route exists, most passengers can just blindly wait for the fastest route to access London, unless they specifically require a specific station served by the other trains, unlike the currently situation where a passenger needs to guess which route to use beforehand, and faces a long wait if the guess is wrong.

This sounds like an ideal scenario, but in practice it will never happen in South London due to the complex nature of the railways and junctions which developed throughout the 19th century.

 

[JonathanH]

the currently situation where a passenger needs to guess which route to use beforehand

Huh? If a passenger needs somewhere reached on the Waterloo service they catch that train, and if they need somewhere reached on the London Bridge service, they take that train. What do they need to guess?

 

[shakermaker_86]

Home working has reduced the demand for travel from the Surrey commuter belt to Central London, and one area that is particularly noticeable is around Epsom. Pre-Covid, there were 4tph from London Waterloo to Leatherhead, with half of those continuing to Dorking and the other half continuing to Guildford via Bookham. There were also London Victoria - Epsom stoppers, which allowed the Dorking/Horsham via Mitcham trains to be sped up.

With fewer trains now than there were 5 years ago, I’m wondering whether it would be worth reintroducing a direct West Croydon - Guildford service to reflect post-Covid travel patterns and fill the gap between Leatherhead and Guildford, which now only has 1tph.

My idea would be to extend the xx25 London Bridge - Epsom service to Guildford, since this is the best you can get to an even interval service at Bookham without a full recast (ex Waterloo train departs Epsom at xx28, while ex London Bridge arrives at xx08, so could depart at xx09 or xx10). In the opposite direction, it would make sense to extend the xx45 Epsom - London Bridge service back to Guildford since the existing Guildford - Waterloo arrives in Epsom at xx18, allowing for a much more evenly spaced timetable. The newly extended service would therefore depart Guildford around xx13ish.

I guest the biggest concern would be conflicting moves at Effingham Junction in the up direction, although my workings out suggest that my proposed Guildford - London Bridge service would depart Effingham Junction around xx29ish, and there aren’t any trains in the down direction between xx19 and xx45. This is only for the daytime though. I would need to do separate workings out for morning and evening peak hours as times vary then, although in an ideal world it would be nice if the entire South London commuter belt followed an all-day Taktplan.

Also as part of this plan, I would consider relocating Bookham station closer to the centre of Fetcham, since the existing station is quite some distance from most of the urban area. The existing Bookham station could then close, or stay open with a reduced frequency if there is still a need for it in addition to Fetcham.

To summarise, this would be the calling pattern of the proposed extended service, starting from London Bridge:

Norwood Junction
West Croydon
Waddon
Wallington
Carshalton Beeches
Sutton
Cheam
Ewell East
Epsom
Ashtead
Leatherhead
Fetcham (new station)
Bookham?
Effingham Junction
Horsley
Clandon
London Road (Guildford)
GUILDFORD

Saying that, Horsley and Clandon probably don’t need more than 3tph, so this train could potentially skip those stations. The aim of this service is to make travel easier between Guildford and Croydon, while filling a gap in an area which has been hit disproportionately hard by the impact of Covid-19 and home working.

As a resident of Fetcham that has a long trek to Bookham station, this is an interesting idea to beef up the current service along the Epsom - Guildford route in the absence of more SWR services. There used to be some trains running from London Bridge to Dorking and Guildford via Epsom, so I don't see why at least some of the current London Bridge services terminating at Epsom can't be extended further south, and therefore not require additional stock on Southerns part. At present if your travelling from stations between Guildford-Bookham and wish to access London Bridge, the SWR arrives at Epsom just as the Southern service leaves for London Bridge, resulting in a 30 minute wait.

Fair point. Gives more options for the local area. I can't understand why Fetcham never had a station in the first place.

Fetcham would definitely benefit from a station, we were supposed to have one built in the 1930s but sadly has yet to be built. I don't think Bookham station should be closed though in favour of a new Fetcham station though, there are a lot of houses between the station and Bookham high street and to the east who use the station, any new Fetcham station should be in addition to Bookham.

More information on the Fetcham station that never was :

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwi40aSQtbCIAxUjYEEAHVDfNFoQFnoECDQQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.leatherheadlocalhistory.org.uk%2Fmiscellany%2Fpotted-history-103.pdf&usg=AOvVaw3-KVeBUNBEKF7iPk6gXaWZ&opi=89978449

Whilst there's technically still enough space for a station to be built where it was originally planned (behind the houses on Monks Green and Hilley Field Lane) a station now would probably be best sited on the east side of the Cobham road bridge, right in the centre of Fetchams village centre today.

 

[Class15]

Yes. I was thinking 8 cars, preferably released by not going to Rainham.

Why is everyone obsessed with ditching the Rainham service? I use it every week, it’s incredibly helpful, and I’d be very annoyed if it was scrapped in favour of more trains to an inconvenient terminus at Cannon St.