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My suggestion for an OHLE mast design for scenic routes

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matacaster

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Most all OHLE masts seem to be on the side away from the six foot. From a purely engineering point of view this is probably the cheapest and simplest option. However, on scenic lines, like the S&C, surely a better design might be justified. If a single central mast in the middle of the six foot could be accommodated with arms over both the adjoining tracks, then at least one half of the trains passengers would have an unencumbered view.

Is there any reason why such a mast could not be designed and stuck in the middle of the 6 foot?
 
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thomson787

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Most all OHLE masts seem to be on the side away from the six foot. From a purely engineering point of view this is probably the cheapest and simplest option. However, on scenic lines, like the S&C, surely a better design might be justified. If a single central mast in the middle of the six foot could be accommodated with arms over both the adjoining tracks, then at least one half of the trains passengers would have an unencumbered view.

Is there any reason why such a mast could not be designed and stuck in the middle of the 6 foot?

Redundancy maybe? for example with 2 masts there is redundancy to keep one line open if one mast on the other side is ends up damaged or faulty, where with a central it would knock out both lines, that would be my guess to one of the reasons im sure there's more.
 

AM9

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Most all OHLE masts seem to be on the side away from the six foot. From a purely engineering point of view this is probably the cheapest and simplest option. However, on scenic lines, like the S&C, surely a better design might be justified. If a single central mast in the middle of the six foot could be accommodated with arms over both the adjoining tracks, then at least one half of the trains passengers would have an unencumbered view.

Is there any reason why such a mast could not be designed and stuck in the middle of the 6 foot?

Wouldn't that be a problem on most plain twin track as the 6 foot doesn't have enough room for a 250mm mast.
 

The Snap

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A few more reasons:

1. When installing foundations in the 6ft (whether piled or pre-cast or insitu concrete), you have to considered track stability and the 'support zone'. Any work in the 6ft is classed as 'affecting track integrity' and therefore invokes the 'handback' procedure. This can complicate things on electrification jobs, both logistically and cost wise.

2. There could be 6ft drainage, through which a piled or concrete foundation would have to be installed.

3. My basic understanding of OLE also tells me that you need masts in the cess on curves to pull the catenary over, particularly on tight curves.

4. I'm pretty sure that a single mast in the 6ft taking both sets of catenary offers half the resistance than two masts or a gantry in the cess. When the wire is in tension, the load applied to the mast and foundation would effectively be double if there was only one mast to two sets of catenary, if that makes sense? I'm rail civils not OLE so I'm happy to be corrected by an OLE colleague! :p
 
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Philip Phlopp

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Wouldn't that be a problem on most plain twin track as the 6 foot doesn't have enough room for a 250mm mast.

Yes. The dynamic envelope of commonly used rolling stock being too large to accommodate a centrally located mast in a number of locations.

Rail vehicles 'sway' in wind conditions and react differently depending on their passenger loadings, so a standard British Rail Mark 3 DMU or EMU which in the factory measured 2.80m wide will be taking up 2.90m or 2.95m in heavy winds with a large passenger loading.
 

matacaster

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Thanks for previous comments.

I do think that there may be ways round some or even all the points made (at a cost).

Mast base in 6 foot - low height steel base with 4 claw feet to bridge drains?

How much clearance is there between two passing trains in the six foot and what structures are currently allowable in the six foot and to what height?

Stress - a taller mast (where possible) with bracing to 'arms' . Similar to some old tram designs but of greater weight and capability. The 'arms' could be to be longer to cater for going round curves.

I suppose that conventional masts could be used in 'non-scenic' or difficult locations, but an improved design would surely make for passenger satisfaction on scenic lines if it is possible.

On a related subject,

I am aware that mast structures generally sit on 4 bolts whether metal piled or concrete based, presumably to aid alignment. Although large, these bolts seem to an outsider to be rather a weak point when compared to the size and weight of the mast they are supporting above. Are these bolts the optimum size, a weak point or are the masts themselves perhaps a little over-engineered?
 

LNW-GW Joint

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There's also the various extra electrical gubbins which is needed along a length of OHLE (to start/terminate wire lengths, carry the earth/AT wires etc).
All that probably needs to go on the outside of the track.
There are also extra-heavy-duty masts near junctions and round curves, to carry the multiple wire routes and maintain the necessary tension.
Maintenance will also be a consideration.
 

Blamethrower

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Don't think there would be enough room

As an aside, I think they should design specific stanchions for scenic areas.

Take Bath, I believe they're looking how to electrify sympathetically, hope fullywith a design that resembles street lights or something.
 

Philip Phlopp

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Thanks for previous comments.

I do think that there may be ways round some or even all the points made (at a cost).

Mast base in 6 foot - low height steel base with 4 claw feet to bridge drains?

How much clearance is there between two passing trains in the six foot and what structures are currently allowable in the six foot and to what height?

Stress - a taller mast (where possible) with bracing to 'arms' . Similar to some old tram designs but of greater weight and capability. The 'arms' could be to be longer to cater for going round curves.

I suppose that conventional masts could be used in 'non-scenic' or difficult locations, but an improved design would surely make for passenger satisfaction on scenic lines if it is possible.

On a related subject,

I am aware that mast structures generally sit on 4 bolts whether metal piled or concrete based, presumably to aid alignment. Although large, these bolts seem to an outsider to be rather a weak point when compared to the size and weight of the mast they are supporting above. Are these bolts the optimum size, a weak point or are the masts themselves perhaps a little over-engineered?

The distance between stock passing obviously varies depending on the width of the stock and track geometry, but a good but rough guide is 450mm/18" based on vehicle width and no lateral deflection.

The name "six foot" is something of a misnomer though - not all tracks are six feet apart, some are more, some are less, though not much less, as you then start getting into the realms of vehicles not being allowed to pass in certain locations.

You can quickly see that a mast that's 250mm wide leaves just 100mm of space on either side, and you wouldn't be able to attach any components below cant rail height on the mast, such as return wires or ATF wires, and you really need to be allowing more than 100mm of lateral movement, so you've got masts that are really within the dynamic envelope of most common rolling stock types.

It's also worth remembering that all of this is based on straight, level track with no cant. If you have track that has a cant, you need your electrification mast to be installed at a jaunty angle, it can't be vertically square as it's going to then be well within the dynamic envelope on one of the lines. OLE components aren't designed for installation at a jaunty angle. They go on vertically square or near square masts.

Fitting expensive, specially manufactured components around drains is a recipe for disaster - don't interfere with drainage, as it upsets many people, starting with the passengers when the route is closed due to flooding and ending with the route director when he finds out what blocked the drain. Your mast and overhead catenary deflects in wind, that causes the base of move or vibrate, which can damage your drain. Leave well alone.

Not sure what the bracing arms concept is, it sounds terribly like a back to back twin track cantilever structure, which is going to be too wide to fit into the six foot from the start. It's also going to be a bit uglier and more prominent than a pair of simple, unobtrusive masts on either side of the track, cess mounted.

The Swiss don't seem to have a problem with the Glacier Express being ruined by decades old OLE masts, they have a staggeringly beautiful country which isn't impacted by their total electrification.

The only suggestion I've got for electrification of a route such as the S&C, is that the conventional masts be manufactured from COR-TEN weathering steel rather than hot dipped galvanised steel, so it should settle into the natural landscape a bit more readily, but I see absolutely no reason nor no justification for highly bespoke equipment that's already been very carefully designed by the very people who have so diligently covered Switzerland with OLE catenary.
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Don't think there would be enough room

As an aside, I think they should design specific stanchions for scenic areas.

Take Bath, I believe they're looking how to electrify sympathetically, hope fullywith a design that resembles street lights or something.

Bath gets bespoke masts with conventional Series 1 single insulator cantilevers, as per this NR/F+F image.

Bmd4_2IIcAAOIq3.jpg
 

furnessvale

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The name "six foot" is something of a misnomer though - not all tracks are six feet apart, some are more, some are less, though not much less, as you then start getting into the realms of vehicles not being allowed to pass in certain locations.

The tightest "six foot" I was involved with, measured 4ft 8ins, ie, a half inch tighter than standard gauge!

This was at Bullgill on the Maryport and Carlisle railway.
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Another problem with 6ft obstructions is that subsequent relaying becomes very expensive, with the need for single line gantries etc instead of traditional relaying cranes.
 

SeanG

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Remember that until not too long ago there were telegraph poles and wires along most lines
 

markindurham

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Sadly, NR are there to provide robust infrastructure which is fit for the purpose of running fast and frequent trains without unexpected technical issues. Aesthetics don't normally come into it. Bath is a special case, but is only a short section and doubtless NR will receive a grant towards it.
 

Bald Rick

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Central masts in a standard '6 foot' would infringe normal structure gauge. Also, as been said upthread, the foundations would be in the track support zone, and a prime target for tampers.
 

kjhskj75

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The Oldham loop has central masts.

Perhaps things are different with light rail.
 

edwin_m

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The Oldham loop has central masts.

Perhaps things are different with light rail.

They are. Trams are that bit narrower and the clearance rules are different. The tracks may have been laid a little further apart during the remodelling too. Centre poles are quite common on off-street tramways, probably due to the saving of metalwork and the lower visual impact.
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3. My basic understanding of OLE also tells me that you need masts in the cess on curves to pull the catenary over, particularly on tight curves.

4. I'm pretty sure that a single mast in the 6ft taking both sets of catenary offers half the resistance than two masts or a gantry in the cess. When the wire is in tension, the load applied to the mast and foundation would effectively be double if there was only one mast to two sets of catenary, if that makes sense? I'm rail civils not OLE so I'm happy to be corrected by an OLE colleague! :p

I agree if one pole supports two sets of OLE on a curve it would have twice as much lateral force on it, but this could be dealt with by having a slightly thicker pole amd heavier foundation if necessary. On its own it would still be cheaper than two seperate poles, but for heavy rail the cost of re-spacing the tracks to put poles in between (which involves moving or modifying nearly everything else down at least one side of the railway) would dwarf any saving on the OLE itself.
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HS2 (?) ran a competition a year or so for people to suggest more attractive OLE supports. Several of those involved central poles, but things have gone very quiet since then. I suppose it's possible that HS2, as a brand new railway which needs very wide track spacings for aerodynamic reasons, could adopt centre poles - though I don't believe any high speed railway anywhere has done this.

Another problem I just thought of is maintenance - you'd have to close both lines to have safe access to do anything to the pole, whereas a side pole only needs one line closing and some tasks may be able to be done from the cess with the line open.

This post about double posts has been affected by the double post prevention system...
 

furnessvale

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The Oldham loop has central masts.

Perhaps things are different with light rail.

Off the top of my head, are not the trams about 8ft wide as opposed to heavy rail 9ft or so, giving an extra foot of clearance in the 6ft.

Additionally, tram OHLE is lighter than heavy rail allowing a lighter(slimmer) mast.
 

Class 170101

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A mast can be attached to one side of the track and hang over two tracks as a opposed to just one. Therefore where there isn't much of a view, perhaps a rock face or trees blocking a view on one side the masts could be placed heer without deteriment to the nicer view I would suggest.
 

Philip Phlopp

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A mast can be attached to one side of the track and hang over two tracks as a opposed to just one. Therefore where there isn't much of a view, perhaps a rock face or trees blocking a view on one side the masts could be placed heer without deteriment to the nicer view I would suggest.

That's a structure known as a twin track cantilever. They're quite expensive, in comparison to a pair of masts, one on each side of the track, and they require a fairly substantial base to cope with the loads involved.

You're also at the mercy of track geometry, drainage, signalling, safe walking routes, access for maintenance and inspection and so on, as to whether a TTC is the most suitable option.

There's also a necessary trade off between effect on the landscape for non railway users and the impact on views from the trains using the route. TTCs are quite a bit larger and more noticeable from a distance in comparison to a pair of masts, so it would be difficult to justify their use on a widespread basis across a scenic route.
 

Class 170101

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Granted though it must be said the scenic route concept for Scotland are mostly single lines.
 

Philip Phlopp

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What about painting the masts in a disruptive camouflage pattern to suit their surroundings?

It's do-able, but it's a question of initial cost and of ongoing maintenance.

If you're going to do disruptive camouflage or any sort of special coating to blend in with the scenery, it has to work year round or not be any more visible than a conventional weather galvanised mast.

Switzerland manages perfectly well with conventional galvanised steel masts, but a good alternative, as I've said previously, is a COR-TEN weathering steel mast, which maintains a pleasing rust colour long term, so is more appropriate for moorland of the type found on many routes.

It has the same maintenance requirements as galvanised steel masts and cost isn't substantially different.
 

Esker-pades

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A mast can be attached to one side of the track and hang over two tracks as a opposed to just one. Therefore where there isn't much of a view, perhaps a rock face or trees blocking a view on one side the masts could be placed heer without deteriment to the nicer view I would suggest.

My point exactly. An example is the WCML, especially as it gets more curvy further north.
 

najaB

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My point exactly. An example is the WCML, especially as it gets more curvy further north.
To be fair, the main concern as far as aesthetics and visual impact are concerned are the views of the railway, rather than from the railway.
 

The Snap

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That's a structure known as a twin track cantilever. They're quite expensive, in comparison to a pair of masts, one on each side of the track, and they require a fairly substantial base to cope with the loads involved.

You're also at the mercy of track geometry, drainage, signalling, safe walking routes, access for maintenance and inspection and so on, as to whether a TTC is the most suitable option.

There's also a necessary trade off between effect on the landscape for non railway users and the impact on views from the trains using the route. TTCs are quite a bit larger and more noticeable from a distance in comparison to a pair of masts, so it would be difficult to justify their use on a widespread basis across a scenic route.

Very true.

Electrifying the existing operational railway is completely different to building a brand new electrified railway. As you say, everything we do when electrifying an existing line must consider what is already there, and the mere cost involved with moving anything to accommodate 6ft OLE masts is immediately prohibitive.

TTCs are a nice trade off, particularly in scenic areas, but as you say the size of the foundation cannot be ignored, particularly when attempting to install them on the existing railway. I've been involved in electrification of existing NR lines, and also with the construction of brand new electrified lines (albeit light rail tram systems). With the tram systems, we were able to install TTC with massive foundations, 6 foot foundations with drains running through them, the lot. On those schemes we had the benefit of building brand new light railway in fields and wasteland with no restrictions. Unfortunately, as I say, the same can't be said when trying to install massive foundations under, in-between or next to an operational WCML!
 

w1bbl3

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Mast base in 6 foot - low height steel base with 4 claw feet to bridge drains?

On a related subject,

I am aware that mast structures generally sit on 4 bolts whether metal piled or concrete based, presumably to aid alignment. Although large, these bolts seem to an outsider to be rather a weak point when compared to the size and weight of the mast they are supporting above. Are these bolts the optimum size, a weak point or are the masts themselves perhaps a little over-engineered?

You really do not want to use steel for a drain "bridge" unless your planning to life the component and introduce a regular fatigue inspection regime.
Drain bridging generally brings in issues of cleaning and maintenance, it would also involve complex earth works to locate the pile structure below the drain.

4 bolt square bases are common in structures as you distribute the forces equally across the points. The higher the required load capacity the larger the bolts you use. The construction industry commonly uses M16, M20 and M24 bolts to anchor low rise / mid rise steel buildings.
 

The Snap

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I suppose that conventional masts could be used in 'non-scenic' or difficult locations, but an improved design would surely make for passenger satisfaction on scenic lines if it is possible.

On a related subject,

I am aware that mast structures generally sit on 4 bolts whether metal piled or concrete based, presumably to aid alignment. Although large, these bolts seem to an outsider to be rather a weak point when compared to the size and weight of the mast they are supporting above. Are these bolts the optimum size, a weak point or are the masts themselves perhaps a little over-engineered?

As w1bbl3 says, the vast majority of OLE structures use M24 and M30 bolts. Larger gantries, portals and cantilevers will use bigger bolts still.

Bolts are designed so that their resistance to shear is greater than the load applied to them, where you have a dead load (the OLE mast itself and anything attached to it), and an active load (the tensioned wire and catenary). Wind load (which is an applied side load) is also considered but in terms of the bolts wouldn't be too significant unless the structure is quite large.

The bolts themselves effectively transfer the load from the OLE structure to the foundation, hence why foundations get larger/smaller and longer/shorter with increasing or decreasing load. So long as that load does not exceed the load the bolts were designed for, the bolts cannot fail (unless faulty).
 
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