New Double decks on the market

[Andyh82]

Has there ever been such a small number of double deck options that bus companies have on offer to purchase new.

In bodywork terms it's basically just either the E400MMC or the Streetdeck/Gemini 3, with the E400City in a small number of cases and the MCV Evoseti in even rarer occasions.

Even in recent years with the Enviro 400 and Eclipse Gemini dominating you still had the Optare Olympus, Scania Omnidekka and Scania's integral making up decent quantities.

 

[F Great Eastern]

There is the Optare Metrodecker now as well.

 

[Hophead]

Optare (are they still called that?) have their Metrodecker or whatever it's called, but I don't know if they have been anything other than demonstrators. It's certainly a vehicle with a lengthy gestation period and there seems little to show for it in terms of sales so far.

 

[bussnapperwm]

Plus you have that new Ensign bus Decker

 

[Bungle965]

Optare (are they still called that?) have their Metrodecker or whatever it's called, but I don't know if they have been anything other than demonstrators. It's certainly a vehicle with a lengthy gestation period and there seems little to show for it in terms of sales so far.

I'm sure I read somewhere that First had put an order in for them.
Sam

 

[GusB]

Considering the amount of turmoil that the UK bus market has undergone over the last couple of decades, there is still a surprising amount of choice. Certainly it's not quite as straightforward as the "old days" where you chose a chassis, then picked your preferred body builder, but the situation could have been a lot worse.

ADL and Wright dominate the market, but still allow some choice in which platform they build on (Scania for ADL, Volvo for Wright). Optare has the Metrodecker, and as mentioned above there's the MCV Evoseti. I'm not sure if VDL still has a suitable product for building double-deck bodywork on.

I'll be interested to see if Ensign's BCI product will have any significant impact now that they've introduced a two-axle version to the UK market.

 

[507021]

I'm sure I read somewhere that First had put an order in for them.
Sam

For three MetroDecker EVs, apparently.

 

[Tetchytyke]

It's not a new thing. Back in the 80s you could buy any decker you wanted so long as it was a Leyland Olympian.

There's always been a limited market, two big builders and then two smaller builders is pretty diverse really.

It's a shame Optare can't find a home for their decker, it looks decent. But Go North East had their demonstrator for ages and did nothing with it, so I wonder what is up with it, if it's price or something else.

 

[GusB]

It's not a new thing. Back in the 80s you could buy any decker you wanted so long as it was a Leyland Olympian.

There's always been a limited market, two big builders and then two smaller builders is pretty diverse really.

It's a shame Optare can't find a home for their decker, it looks decent. But Go North East had their demonstrator for ages and did nothing with it, so I wonder what is up with it, if it's price or something else.

At the beginning of the 80s, the Fleetline was still (just) in production, as was the Bristol VR, Atlantean and Titan, but they were all Leyland products that were eventually replaced by the Olympian.

There was a bit more competition, though: MCW Metrobus, Scania K/N series, Volvo Ailsa/Citybus and the Dennis Dominator and Falcon V. I nearly forgot to mention the Lion, Leyland's answer to the Volvo Citybus.

 

[507021]

At the beginning of the 80s, the Fleetline was still (just) in production, as was the Bristol VR, Atlantean and Titan, but they were all Leyland products that were eventually replaced by the Olympian.

There was a bit more competition, though: MCW Metrobus, Scania K/N series, Volvo Ailsa/Citybus and the Dennis Dominator and Falcon V. I nearly forgot to mention the Lion, Leyland's answer to the Volvo Citybus.

The Titan was a superb vehicle, one of my all time favourites.

 

[Andyh82]

At the beginning of the 80s, the Fleetline was still (just) in production, as was the Bristol VR, Atlantean and Titan, but they were all Leyland products that were eventually replaced by the Olympian.

There was a bit more competition, though: MCW Metrobus, Scania K/N series, Volvo Ailsa/Citybus and the Dennis Dominator and Falcon V. I nearly forgot to mention the Lion, Leyland's answer to the Volvo Citybus.

And I think those secondary options got a much bigger share of the pie than today's secondary options do.

Going back say 20 years ago you could buy an Alexander R type or a Royale, a Northern Counties Palatine I or II, an East Lancs, an Optare Spectra, and they could be on an Olympian, Scania, Dennis Arrow or a DAF.

 

[Mikey C]

In terms of bodywork there are 4 main options, E400MMC, Streetdeck, MCV and Metrodecker, plus the London driven E400City and Wright Borismaster style bodywork which is available on the Volvo chassis, so that's a fair amount of choice really

 

[507021]

In terms of bodywork there are 4 main options, E400MMC, Streetdeck, MCV and Metrodecker, plus the London driven E400City and Wright Borismaster style bodywork which is available on the Volvo chassis, so that's a fair amount of choice really

Absolutely, there is a lot more choice than people think.

With Wrightbus, their Gemini 3 bodywork comes with two chassis options, the Volvo B5TL and the Volvo B5LH, with the integral StreetDeck fitted with a Daimler engine. That's three different choices.

However, the Enviro400 comes in five different versions; the integral (Cummins engine), the Volvo B5TL, the Volvo B5LH, the Scania N-series (diesel) and the CNG powered N-series. I think the Enviro400 CNG is an excellent product, I really hope some are ordered in my area.

 

[GusB]

Absolutely, there is a lot more choice than people think.

With Wrightbus, their Gemini 3 bodywork comes with two chassis options, the Volvo B5TL and the Volvo B5LH, with the integral StreetDeck fitted with a Daimler engine. That's three different choices.

However, the Enviro400 comes in five different versions; the integral (Cummins engine), the Volvo B5TL, the Volvo B5LH, the Scania N-series (diesel) and the CNG powered N-series. I think the Enviro400 CNG is an excellent product, I really hope some are ordered in my area.

Is the Volvo/ADL combination still available? I've had a quick look at both websites, and the B5TL spec sheet suggests it's only available with Gemini 3 or Evoseti bodywork.

 

[507021]

Is the Volvo/ADL combination still available? I've had a quick look at both websites, and the B5TL spec sheet suggests it's only available with Gemini 3 or Evoseti bodywork.

It is still available, although I understand the B5TL is quite rare, whereas the B5LH has sold in much larger numbers.

 

[Southcombe]

In NBC Days, all the regional companies seemed to use Bristol VRs. City of Oxford kept one in particular (OFC901H) in operation a long time. It was often used on the 44 route between Oxford, Woodstock and Chipping Norton, but was later coverted to an open-topper and used on City Sightseeing Tours. Haven't seen a Bristol VR, or VRT What was the difference?) for a good many years. Stagecoach, who operate the Chipping Norton Route, now numbered S3, use Scania Double Deckers on this, and many other routes.

 

[Andyh82]

I did start this thread focussing on the lack of choices of bodywork a supposed to chassis or hybrid combinations, which at the end of the day is what can be seen by the passenger and the enthusiast.

 

[Bungle965]

In terms of bodywork there are 4 main options, E400MMC, Streetdeck, MCV and Metrodecker, plus the London driven E400City and Wright Borismaster style bodywork which is available on the Volvo chassis, so that's a fair amount of choice really

I believe the Borismaster style bodywork is being retired after they have finished the orders for Tfl.
The E400City also seems to be making appearances outside of London in places such as Blackpool and also Nottingham City Transport.
Sam

 

[GusB]

I did start this thread focussing on the lack of choices of bodywork a supposed to chassis or hybrid combinations, which at the end of the day is what can be seen by the passenger and the enthusiast.

Yes, if you are specifically referring to bodywork choices, I would be inclined to agree with you. As more manufacturers offered complete products as opposed to traditional body-on-chassis construction it was inevitable that some would fall by the wayside, or be gobbled up by larger companies. Interestingly, the two companies who produced integral double deckers in the 70s and 80s (Titan and Metrobus) are no longer with us. The three main domestic manufacturers that exist today had their roots in body building rather than chassis manufacture, although ADL had this expertise through Dennis.

You said in an earlier post:

Going back say 20 years ago you could buy an Alexander R type or a Royale, a Northern Counties Palatine I or II, an East Lancs, an Optare Spectra, and they could be on an Olympian, Scania, Dennis Arrow or a DAF.

Even 30 years ago there wasn't as much choice as there was in the decade before. MCW was still around, but would deliver its last Metrobuses in 1989. Optare, built a few double-deck bodies, but was initially focused on building smaller vehicles. Leyland built the former ECW design until 1992, but as far as I know it was only for the Olympian. ECW, Park Royal and Roe had already gone, although the latter was the basis for what we now know as Optare - and they were all Leyland companies anyway! Alexander, East Lancs and Nothern Counties were the only other major builders still doing double-deckers.

 

[507021]

I did start this thread focussing on the lack of choices of bodywork a supposed to chassis or hybrid combinations, which at the end of the day is what can be seen by the passenger and the enthusiast.

At the end of the day though, I think what bus passengers can't see (the chassis) has a greater importance. As a bus driver (and occasional passenger), I have heard quite a few passengers saying how the ride quality is better on that bus compared to another bus they have travelled on previously.

There are seven double deck body types that I can think of (2x ADL, 2x Wrightbus, 1x Optare, 1x MCV and 1x BCI) on offer, so still a decent amount.

 

[Mikey C]

I believe the Borismaster style bodywork is being retired after they have finished the orders for Tfl.
The E400City also seems to be making appearances outside of London in places such as Blackpool and also Nottingham City Transport.
Sam

The actual Borismasters will cease production, but a year or so ago it did seem that TfL wanted the "normal" double deckers to incorporate the style and features of the NBfL. The E400City was one result of this, the other being the Wrightbus SRM on the Volvo chassis. I've not seen any major order for this option?

 

[Andyh82]

The fact that Boris has gone is possibly the case? The NRM has fallen in favour since and I might be wrong but the last 50 or so are being used to convert outer London routes rather than a key central London route. (the EL routes and there is talk a 4xx route will be next)

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

In NBC Days, all the regional companies seemed to use Bristol VRs. City of Oxford kept one in particular (OFC901H) in operation a long time. It was often used on the 44 route between Oxford, Woodstock and Chipping Norton, but was later coverted to an open-topper and used on City Sightseeing Tours. Haven't seen a Bristol VR, or VRT What was the difference?) for a good many years. Stagecoach, who operate the Chipping Norton Route, now numbered S3, use Scania Double Deckers on this, and many other routes.

Not quite.

London Country standardised on Atlanteans (they did have one batch of VRs that they sent away to Bristol) and Northern General and Ribble all had more Atlanteans than VRs. Other firms that also sourced Atlanteans with their VRs were East Kent, West Riding and Trent.

COMS also operated a lot of Fleetlines into the early 1980s, with ones bought in the late BET/early NBC era (UFC-K) being joined by various secondhand examples from Midland Red, Southend and London.

As for the difference.... the VR was the family name. Most had a transversely mounted engine hence VRT. There were some buses built as VRL (Longitudinally mounted) but most were the famous Standerwick deckers of the early 1970s.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I did start this thread focussing on the lack of choices of bodywork a supposed to chassis or hybrid combinations, which at the end of the day is what can be seen by the passenger and the enthusiast.

Most passengers don't give a fig about the look - it's about the reliability and the comfort.

It's only really enthusiasts who get bent out of shape at the Wright Streetdeck's looks or the standardisation of the Stagecoach fleet

 

[Busaholic]

The fact that Boris has gone is possibly the case? The NRM has fallen in favour since and I might be wrong but the last 50 or so are being used to convert outer London routes rather than a key central London route. (the EL routes and there is talk a 4xx route will be next)

Yes, the 468 route, a very good, reliable route at present, so I hope that continues.

 

[GusB]

Not quite.

London Country standardised on Atlanteans (they did have one batch of VRs that they sent away to Bristol) and Northern General and Ribble all had more Atlanteans than VRs. Other firms that also sourced Atlanteans with their VRs were East Kent, West Riding and Trent.

COMS also operated a lot of Fleetlines into the early 1980s, with ones bought in the late BET/early NBC era (UFC-K) being joined by various secondhand examples from Midland Red, Southend and London.

As for the difference.... the VR was the family name. Most had a transversely mounted engine hence VRT. There were some buses built as VRL (Longitudinally mounted) but most were the famous Standerwick deckers of the early 1970s.

There was a tendency for NBC companies to purchase the Bristol/ECW combination, and while I'm not entirely au fait with NBC practice, I believe this stemmed from the fact that the former Tilling companies were obliged to purchase in-house. Wasn't there also a period where Bristol and ECW could only sell to nationalised concerns - hence the development of the Dennis Loline, which was essentially a Bristol FLF built under licence?

The VRT was a bus I'd never encountered until Stagecoach took over my local company (Northern Scottish) in the early 90s and they sent a load north in exchange for newer Olympians.

A couple of SBG companies had new VRTs in the early days, but they didn't like them and swapped them for FLFs. I can't figure out why - as a mere travelling passenger the VRT was no worse than the Fleetline which was their preferred rear-engined bus!

 

[Swanny200]

There was a tendency for NBC companies to purchase the Bristol/ECW combination, and while I'm not entirely au fait with NBC practice, I believe this stemmed from the fact that the former Tilling companies were obliged to purchase in-house. Wasn't there also a period where Bristol and ECW could only sell to nationalised concerns - hence the development of the Dennis Loline, which was essentially a Bristol FLF built under licence?

The VRT was a bus I'd never encountered until Stagecoach took over my local company (Northern Scottish) in the early 90s and they sent a load north in exchange for newer Olympians.

A couple of SBG companies had new VRTs in the early days, but they didn't like them and swapped them for FLFs. I can't figure out why - as a mere travelling passenger the VRT was no worse than the Fleetline which was their preferred rear-engined bus!

I had moved away from Aberdeen in 1990 and loved riding on the upstairs front seats of the Olympians, and in saying that the Atlanteans that Grampian employed too, I ended up in Kent where Maidstone and District had so many variations of VR's, one of the weirdest were the Willowbrook bodied ones, they also had a couple of Ailsa's which were Scottish stable at one time, I loved M&D's coach bodied Olympians that they used on the Invictaway services and then the 101.

 

[urpert]

Plenty of Evosetis entering service in London at the moment. It's nice to have the variety though I'm not convinced the quality is up to surviving 15 years of London service.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

There was a tendency for NBC companies to purchase the Bristol/ECW combination, and while I'm not entirely au fait with NBC practice, I believe this stemmed from the fact that the former Tilling companies were obliged to purchase in-house. Wasn't there also a period where Bristol and ECW could only sell to nationalised concerns - hence the development of the Dennis Loline, which was essentially a Bristol FLF built under licence?

The VRT was a bus I'd never encountered until Stagecoach took over my local company (Northern Scottish) in the early 90s and they sent a load north in exchange for newer Olympians.

A couple of SBG companies had new VRTs in the early days, but they didn't like them and swapped them for FLFs. I can't figure out why - as a mere travelling passenger the VRT was no worse than the Fleetline which was their preferred rear-engined bus!

The BCV/ECW combo was indeed restricted to the Tilling Group though this was later relaxed before the NBC was created (e.g. South Shields Corporation received some early RE/ECWs).

The VRL and VRT were built in a bit of a hurry with some last minute changes to the design and a lack of evaluation and testing in order to try and catch up with the OMO designs of the Atlantean and the Fleetline. That is apparent in some of the weaknesses that are apparent (e.g. the transverse drive train into the rear axle etc). The VRL had more drivetrain issues and was eventually killed off in favour of the VRT with many of the issues being resolved with the Mk2.

The SBG received many early examples in their aim to get OMO deckers from their preferred supplier. However, the design flaws were one thing but also the SBG were very conservative in their thinking so weren't really geared up for something as advanced - remember they were still buying crash gearbox Leopards in the late 1970's!! Therefore, they couldn't keep them on the road so in 1973, there was a swap with the VRs heading to England (most to NBC) with late model FLF Lodekkas heading north. NOTE: Central SMT also had a batch of Fleetlines (J reg?) and they didn't get on with those either!

The English operators found that there was actually relatively little wrong with the VRTs and they worked soundly for the next 10 years with some of them having long lives (e.g. some Eastern Scottish ones went to Eastern National and ended up with Ribble for post de-reg services).

The English FLFs were much more to SBG's liking, working mainly for Eastern Scottish and Western SMT but, of course, had to be crew operated. Eventually, SBG settled on Fleetlines and the locally built Volvo Ailsa (front engined) for their deckers from the mid 1970s onwards with Eastern Scottish (the most English of SBG firms) getting Fleetlines with ECW bodies!

Oddly, Tayside bought a batch of VRs (1976?) but oddly didn't get on with them so sold them after about 6 years service to Burnley and National Welsh among others.

Eventually, deregulation and the fall out of that saw VRs heading north of the border with various independents buying them for competitive services and schools (e.g. Moffat and Williamson, Gaelicbus) and also former SBG firms such as Lowland and then via the Stagecoach empire to Fife and Bluebird. Some passed via acquisitions to Kelvin Central though don't know if any survived to First. Hope this helps

 

[MotCO]

It's a shame Optare can't find a home for their decker, it looks decent. But Go North East had their demonstrator for ages and did nothing with it, so I wonder what is up with it, if it's price or something else.

Go Ahead London also had a demonstrator on long term loan, but again, it did not yield any sales. (It then went on loan to Autocar who are not renown for buying new buses). One of the problems is that there is no hybrid version, and all new buses in London tend to be hybrid. The bus is lighter than competitors, so fuel economy should be good - if only they could get a sizeable order (even if the price had to be dropped to secure it).

There is a battery version - maybe they are pinning their hopes on securing London sales of this model.

Their most successful model is the Solo - but this seems to be edged out by the Streetlite - why???