New Scenic route - South Pennine 87

[Teapot42]

Since I discovered Mortimer Road (between Penistone and Strines) a few years back I've wondered if it had or would ever have a bus service - well, from Monday it appears it does!

The South Pennine 87 from Castleton to Holmfirth runs this way, at least as far as Midhopestones. Oddly there is no return journey (personally I think the other direction is a more rewarding drive) but it does run Monday to Friday.

I'd recommend anyone who has even the slightest risk of travel sickness to take suitable precautions - this road isn't a gentle countryside ramble.

I wonder what they'll be using - this is the only road I've ever seen that has a vehicle length restriction rather than width, being limited to just under 33ft (from memory), mainly due to some very tight turns entering very narrow bridges.

Rather oddly, prior to this run the bus shuttles up and down Winnats Pass 4 times - I'm actually struggling to see the purpose of any of these runs to be honest, but it'll be fun to explore as a passenger rather than a driver. Not sure quite how to get back from Holmfirth, the 351 is being revised but no new timetable is up yet so I can't tell if it might be an option.

 

[Steve440]

There is a journey from Holmfirth to Castleton on Wednesdays at 09:55.

87 - Holmfirth - Castleton

South Pennine Community Transport

bustimes.org

The service only runs on Wednesdays anyway, the registration on bustimes is wrong. Presumably it will be corrected at some point.

 

[Teapot42]

There is a journey from Holmfirth to Castleton on Wednesdays at 09:55.

87 - Holmfirth - Castleton

South Pennine Community Transport

bustimes.org

The service only runs on Wednesdays anyway, the registration on bustimes is wrong. Presumably it will be corrected at some point.

Thanks, I'd missed that. Makes more sense to have an outbound as well, no help for those of us where this end of the route is closer to get back unfortunately.

 

[Deerfold]

Derbyshire bus information describes it as Monday to Friday in the timetable.

https://derbysbus.info/times/timetables/spct87%20&%2087a-holmfirth-castletonmamtor.pdf

Monday to Friday

The 87a is correctly noted as only running on Wednesdays but oddly by giving a note saying that on a Monday to Friday timetable instead of just saying "Wednesdays Only" at the top.

But as Wednesday only in their description of the new service.

Public Transport in Derbyshire & the Peak District

New Wednesday service from Holmfirth to Castleton and Mam Tor from 2nd September 2024

Oddly, they only give the times within Derbyshire.

 

[Teapot42]

Oddly, they only give the times within Derbyshire.

Which is also reflected on Bustimes as it shows two journeys between the Strines turn-off and Castleton at identical times.

Is this likely to be a registration error? I thought Bustimes took data straight from BODS so unless it's how that data is interpreted then maybe the error is there? I'm not sure if the fact South Pennine don't (appear to) feed BODS is an issue?

In addition, things could get fun as there is a decent chance the 87a could meet the Blue Peak Sightseer on Winnats pass. The 12:15 87a from Castleton leaves Speedwell Cavern (the bottom of the pass) at the same time the 12:20 Blue leaves Mam Tor. There is also a 12:01 87a from Mam Tor which is likely to meet the 12:03 Blue Peak Sightseer from Speedwell Cavern.
Not the end of the world, but a car passing a bus on that road is tricky enough, two buses passing will be a lot harder.

 

[markymark2000]

Is this likely to be a registration error? I thought Bustimes took data straight from BODS so unless it's how that data is interpreted then maybe the error is there? I'm not sure if the fact South Pennine don't (appear to) feed BODS is an issue?

South Pennine CT data comes from Traveline. That means the data is whatever the local authorities have put into Traveline.

South Pennine CT don't feed to BODS because they legally don't have to as they operate under Section 22 permits.

 

[Teapot42]

South Pennine CT data comes from Traveline. That means the data is whatever the local authorities have put into Traveline.

South Pennine CT don't feed to BODS because they legally don't have to as they operate under Section 22 permits.

Thanks for the clarification. As you can probably tell I'm not in the industry, what difference does operating under Section 22 make?

Presumably they could still feed BODS if they chose - and there is an argument that for the sort of routes they serve it would be of great benefit to passengers to know the bus is actually on the way!

 

[ALEMASTER]

There is a variety of services like that being introduced, details including timetable PDFs can be found on the Travel South Yorkshire website at https://www.travelsouthyorkshire.com/en-gb/newsupdates/service-changes

There is a
59 Holmfirth-Hillsborough (Thursdays)
77 Holmfirth-Meadowhall/Sheffield (Mondays)
87 Holmfirth-Castleton (Wednesdays)

 

[Tim33160]

Derbyshire bus information describes it as Monday to Friday in the timetable.

https://derbysbus.info/times/timetables/spct87%20&%2087a-holmfirth-castletonmamtor.pdf

The 87a is correctly noted as only running on Wednesdays but oddly by giving a note saying that on a Monday to Friday timetable instead of just saying "Wednesdays Only" at the top.

But as Wednesday only in their description of the new service.

Public Transport in Derbyshire & the Peak District

Oddly, they only give the times within Derbyshire.

Full SYPTE timetable at
https://www.travelsouthyorkshire.co...rom-04-September-2024-(PDF-95kb).pdf?ext=.pdf

 

[Teapot42]

There is a variety of services like that being introduced, details including timetable PDFs can be found on the Travel South Yorkshire website at https://www.travelsouthyorkshire.com/en-gb/newsupdates/service-changes
...

Are these subsidised services, or have South Pennine decided there is a market for a once a week bus that gives you 2 hours in Castleton?

Either option seems odd, and while I love the idea from a novelty value and there are some interesting routes to travel, I can't see how they could either make money commercially or there be a need that warrants a subsidy.

If they are subsidised then I wonder if Derbyshire could get involved and subsidise the 87 to have two round trips - there would be as much demand for customers from North Derbyshire to visit Holmfirth and / or Strines as vice versa and you'd have the option to stay longer.

 

[geoffk]

I see this goes near Wigtwizzle. Not a lot of population to serve except at Holmfirth itself.

 

[markymark2000]

Thanks for the clarification. As you can probably tell I'm not in the industry, what difference does operating under Section 22 make?

Section 22 is a community bus permit and in order to try and ease the burden on local community bus operators, it was decided to exempt these from Bus Open data. Bearing in mind, many community bus operators are very small and only run a few little bits here, and there.

Presumably they could still feed BODS if they chose - and there is an argument that for the sort of routes they serve it would be of great benefit to passengers to know the bus is actually on the way!

They could upload to BODS if they chose. I fully, fully agree with your points, sadly South Pennine don't want to do open data though. The costs of BODS is so high that their commercial routes may become unviable, and the tenders, they are only winning some of the tenders because they have vastly lower costs than other operators, in part due to them not having to comply with BODS. If they did comply with BODS (voluntarily or forced), I doubt they would win as many contracts on a more level playing field.

 

[Teapot42]

Section 22 is a community bus permit and in order to try and ease the burden on local community bus operators, it was decided to exempt these from Bus Open data. Bearing in mind, many community bus operators are very small and only run a few little bits here, and there.

Ah, I see. Can an operator choose what type of service to run, or do they have to be Section 22 only? I'm thinking some commercial operators in smaller areas could benefit from running services to areas of lesser demand under Section 22 maybe, but I can also see it might be open to abuse.

I don't know if Derbyshire Community Transport operate under Section 22 or not, but they do feed BODS. It's not helped their ability to run services though as they've lost most of their routes just recently.

They could upload to BODS if they chose. I fully, fully agree with your points, sadly South Pennine don't want to do open data though. The costs of BODS is so high that their commercial routes may become unviable, and the tenders, they are only winning some of the tenders because they have vastly lower costs than other operators, in part due to them not having to comply with BODS. If they did comply with BODS (voluntarily or forced), I doubt they would win as many contracts on a more level playing field.

What are the costs involved with BODS? Sending the data should be coppers a day, but are they, for example, able to use cheaper ticket machines that don't have a cellular connection? I'd imagine some back-office savings in terms of keeping registrations etc up to date as well.

Looked at from the outside I can see an up-front cost (ticket machines) but only a low on-going cost, unless there is something I'm not aware of, such as subscription costs?

 

[Deerfold]

Ah, I see. Can an operator choose what type of service to run, or do they have to be Section 22 only? I'm thinking some commercial operators in smaller areas could benefit from running services to areas of lesser demand under Section 22 maybe, but I can also see it might be open to abuse.

Section 22 permits are only to non-profit organisations.

 

[markymark2000]

I don't know if Derbyshire Community Transport operate under Section 22 or not, but they do feed BODS. It's not helped their ability to run services though as they've lost most of their routes just recently.

They operate under a full operators licence and so legally for their services, they would have to feed to BODS.

What are the costs involved with BODS? Sending the data should be coppers a day, but are they, for example, able to use cheaper ticket machines that don't have a cellular connection? I'd imagine some back-office savings in terms of keeping registrations etc up to date as well.

To provide proper Bus Open Data, you'd be looking a few hundred pounds per ticket machine, per month with Ticketer. I don't know about other ticket machine manufacturers though. Community transport operators likely wouldn't see any back office savings.

Looked at from the outside I can see an up-front cost (ticket machines) but only a low on-going cost, unless there is something I'm not aware of, such as subscription costs?

Ticketer I know is addons galore. I dread to think how much some operators pay up for Ticketer with all of their various addons. It's all per machine costs too so it adds up quick.

 

[Teapot42]

To provide proper Bus Open Data, you'd be looking a few hundred pounds per ticket machine, per month with Ticketer. I don't know about other ticket machine manufacturers though. Community transport operators likely wouldn't see any back office savings.

Ticketer I know is addons galore. I dread to think how much some operators pay up for Ticketer with all of their various addons. It's all per machine costs too so it adds up quick.

I guess they have to make their revenue somehow. We are looking at adding cellular connectivity to the products I design. You can get a modem for a few tens of pounds, data is a pound or two a gig and can usually be pooled across a number of machines. I'd guess they are just uploading something like a JSON string a few times a minute, so a gig will last a long time. An AWS or Azure back end to pipe that data to the BODS system might cost a few hundred, even a grand a month to run, but that would cover all your customers. When you start talking things like tracking driver hours, delays, fuel duty reclaim and so on then yes, I can imagine it's starting to cost a few quid per bus to host that data, but the rest will be paying their development expenses and executive lifestyles for the directors.

I'm actually wondering if there is a market for a stand-alone gadget that feeds in to BODS for smaller operators. Might not be as pretty as an integrated system, but you could add the basic functionality pretty easily and cheaply.

 

[WibbleWobble]

I'm actually wondering if there is a market for a stand-alone gadget that feeds in to BODS for smaller operators. Might not be as pretty as an integrated system, but you could add the basic functionality pretty easily and cheaply.

Smaller operators can employ an agent who can supply the data on their behalf. National Passenger Transport Information (who run the Traveline South West site) do this for a fair number of smaller operators in the south west, as they have the means to convert their timetable data into compliant TransXchange.

 

[AWWisher]

I think this venture is missing some opportunities which may be the difference between success and failure.
It does not pass through any sizable centres of population between Holmfirth and Bamford although it passes close to Penistone and Stocksbridge (with no bus connections to them).
It passes through South Yorkshire from north to south without serving it.

 

[gledhill56]

I wonder what they'll be using - this is the only road I've ever seen that has a vehicle length restriction rather than width, being limited to just under 33ft (from memory), mainly due to some very tight turns entering very narrow bridges.

Shaw Wood Road in the Todmorden area between the A646 at Eastwood and Harvelin Park has a 26ft length restriction for similar reasons and is served by Todmorden local services T6 and T8.

 

[Andyh82]

Since I discovered Mortimer Road (between Penistone and Strines) a few years back I've wondered if it had or would ever have a bus service - well, from Monday it appears it does!

The South Pennine 87 from Castleton to Holmfirth runs this way, at least as far as Midhopestones. Oddly there is no return journey (personally I think the other direction is a more rewarding drive) but it does run Monday to Friday.

I'd recommend anyone who has even the slightest risk of travel sickness to take suitable precautions - this road isn't a gentle countryside ramble.

I wonder what they'll be using - this is the only road I've ever seen that has a vehicle length restriction rather than width, being limited to just under 33ft (from memory), mainly due to some very tight turns entering very narrow bridges.

It will no doubt be a Transit van

South Pennine run a range of once or twice a week services from Holmfirth, including services to Uppermill and Ashton in Greater Manchester. They generally use their smallest vehicles on these.

From this week, they are also running a once a week service to Meadowhall

 

[Deerfold]

South Pennine seem to be doing minimum publicity for their new routes. No news page on their website, not a word on their Facebook or Twitter accounts. The new timetables have quietly arrived (they weren't there when I looked last week.

The once a week service to Meadowhall seems odd - 2 hours at Meadowhall, but if you go from Holmfirth, 2 hours on the bus, too.