Newark to Lincoln speed up?

[adamedwards]

On Friday I had a first bimode ride to Lincoln, changing to diesel at Newark. With a much more frequent service than one HST per day, it seems to me some money could now be justified on speeding up the junction north of Newark which is 15mph limited. Could the line speed thence to Lincoln be raised to all 100mph for modern units? Much harder would be any work at Lincoln on the 1980s curves. Opinions welcomed.

 

[adamedwards]

And here's the Azuma at Lincoln.

 

[Failed Unit]

On Friday I had a first bimode ride to Lincoln, changing to diesel at Newark. With a much more frequent service than one HST per day, it seems to me some money could now be justified on speeding up the junction north of Newark which is 15mph limited. Could the line speed thence to Lincoln be raised to all 100mph for modern units? Much harder would be any work at Lincoln on the 1980s curves. Opinions welcomed.

you would have noticed some very low speed limits, on a fairly straight route along with a harsh tsr.

not sure if the curve is worth it as it close to Newark and need to cross the running lines. However 75mph from there to the Boutham curves should be possible. Even 90mph.

I suspect resistance will be high as I think you may save 5 mins max. Will help EMR but for LNER the train will just be stables longer. Not really enough time saving to justify it in terms of new journeys as a result.

like the idea. They will get a lot of passengers as it isn’t a 153 and you don’t risk missing it if you get 10 mins delay on ECML. (As long as they don’t drop it at the first sign of disruption)

edit. Just looked back at a Central trains timetable. A Grimsby - Birmingham new street service was scheduled to do it in 19 minutes. Progress.

 

[class26]

On Friday I had a first bimode ride to Lincoln, changing to diesel at Newark. With a much more frequent service than one HST per day, it seems to me some money could now be justified on speeding up the junction north of Newark which is 15mph limited. Could the line speed thence to Lincoln be raised to all 100mph for modern units? Much harder would be any work at Lincoln on the 1980s curves. Opinions welcomed.

There is a fairly lengthy 50 mph once on the Nottingham - Lincoln line which apparently is due to the formation not be in good condition. This has been like this for decades but once after Collingham the speed raises to 70 mph

The Midlands rail strategy (don`t recall the correct name) has plans to raise the speeds between Nottingham and Lincoln around 2024 I seem to remember and I have heard 90 mph being talked about.

 

[Meerkat]

Have the demand elasticities of speeding up trains been revised since BR worked them out?
I have a totally unscientific opinion that trains FEELING slow is very offputting to possible passengers, particularly when it comes to crawling the last mile or two as they stand by the doors waiting, and that fast modern cars and roads make it all the more obvious.
Hit the open road in a car and you whizz along, so pootling along a seemingly straight open rail line feels very backward.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

Have the demand elasticities of speeding up trains been revised since BR worked them out?
I have a totally unscientific opinion that trains FEELING slow is very offputting to possible passengers, particularly when it comes to crawling the last mile or two as they stand by the doors waiting, and that fast modern cars and roads make it all the more obvious.
Hit the open road in a car and you whizz along, so pootling along a seemingly straight open rail line feels very backward.

There are several railway routes in this country with long straight stretches and easy curves where the line speed is lamentably low. About forty years ago, a railway enthusiast friend and I travelled by DMU from Lincoln to Nottingham. It was one of those old-fashioned DMUs which gave a view of the track from the front seats. Being Londoners, it wasn't our part of the country and we were startled to learn how well-aligned the route was. (Don Coffey has recently uploaded a video of this route on YouTube and it's well worth watching)

I have no idea how cost effective it would be, but I'd love to see a sustained long-term project to rebuild all these well-aligned routes to enable 100 mph running.

 

[Senex]

Have the demand elasticities of speeding up trains been revised since BR worked them out?
I have a totally unscientific opinion that trains FEELING slow is very offputting to possible passengers, particularly when it comes to crawling the last mile or two as they stand by the doors waiting, and that fast modern cars and roads make it all the more obvious.
Hit the open road in a car and you whizz along, so pootling along a seemingly straight open rail line feels very backward.

It also FEELS very slow when you're on a long-distance train making relatively frequent stops, even when that train is actually quite tightly timed. HST station-to-station times (and of course 222 times) for, say, London to Derby are very tight, but to make the throughout journey by one of those trains feels tedious in the extreme. Many XC services feel the same. A German example that I have used many times is Berlin to Cologne via Düsseldorf. After a good fast run to Hannover things go off badly: Bielefeld, Hamm, Dortmund, Bochum, Essen, Duisburg, Düsseldorf, and finally Cologne—it all seems to be an unending string of stops.

 

[BigCj34]

There are several railway routes in this country with long straight stretches and easy curves where the line speed is lamentably low. About forty years ago, a railway enthusiast friend and I travelled by DMU from Lincoln to Nottingham. It was one of those old-fashioned DMUs which gave a view of the track from the front seats. Being Londoners, it wasn't our part of the country and we were startled to learn how well-aligned the route was. (Don Coffey has recently uploaded a video of this route on YouTube and it's well worth watching)

I have no idea how cost effective it would be, but I'd love to see a sustained long-term project to rebuild all these well-aligned routes to enable 100 mph running.

The Furness line from Roose to Barrow grinds to a slowdown for most of that portion of the route, no idea why the line speed is low but a few people get up thinking they're nearly there only to be standing for 5 minutes. Anyone know why that is? Poor quality ballast or something?

 

[adamedwards]

Agree completely with the comments about speed. The Azuma nipped along to Newark and then it was very tedious. The now approaching Lincoln announcement is before the final curves into Lincoln so lots of people standing too soon. Needs 90/100 to suit 158s and 170s.

 

[class26]

Agree completely with the comments about speed. The Azuma nipped along to Newark and then it was very tedious. The now approaching Lincoln announcement is before the final curves into Lincoln so lots of people standing too soon. Needs 90/100 to suit 158s and 170s.

My latest understanding is that local MP`s are being lobied about raising speed. I hear that the Newark - Nottingham section is also capable of higher speeds but needs that last bit of expenditure but the main big bear is between Collingham - Swinderby which as said before is 50 mph. The aim apparently is 90 mph. The hope is that money will be forthcoming from Midland Connect.

 

[adamedwards]

I assume eventually this line gets due for reballasting and new track and then we might see this speed up. Hope soon rather than later.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

I assume eventually this line gets due for reballasting and new track and then we might see this speed up. Hope soon rather than later.

Unfortunately, the various professionals who post in this forum have frequently stated that increasing speeds substantially requires major strengthening of embankments and, if the route is across poorly drained land, some comprehensive rebuilding of parts of the infrastructure. The signalling may also need to be intensified. I suspect that new track and ballast will not be enough.

 

[class26]

I assume eventually this line gets due for reballasting and new track and then we might see this speed up. Hope soon rather than later.

I remember as a student in the 1970s travelling frequently on this line between Lincoln and Derby and it was 50 mph throughout (Lincoln - Newark) in those days which was trully painful. So the 50 hasn`t changed in half a century but at least now things are stirring. I would hope with Midlands Connect involved now involved we will see an improvement soon(ish)

 

[class26]

Unfortunately, the various professionals who post in this forum have frequently stated that increasing speeds substantially requires major strengthening of embankments and, if the route is across poorly drained land, some comprehensive rebuilding of parts of the infrastructure. The signalling may also need to be intensified. I suspect that new track and ballast will not be enough.

Apparently, as I posted further up thread it has been costed at 5 million to raise speed to 75 mph and 10 million to 90 mph.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

Apparently, as I posted further up thread it has been costed at 5 million to raise speed to 75 mph and 10 million to 90 mph.

I'd be very pleased indeed to achieve 90 mph for so little. I'm not a railway professional and have no detailed knowledge of the route but I'm puzzled that the line speed was not raised decades ago if it can be done for a mere £10 million.

 

[class26]

I'd be very pleased indeed to achieve 90 mph for so little. I'm not a railway professional and have no detailed knowledge of the route but I'm puzzled that the line speed was not raised decades ago if it can be done for a mere £10 million.

I am only quoting what I have been told by a good source. Also bear in mind that over half the route between Lincoln and Newark is 70 mph already.

 

[Meerkat]

I'd be very pleased indeed to achieve 90 mph for so little. I'm not a railway professional and have no detailed knowledge of the route but I'm puzzled that the line speed was not raised decades ago if it can be done for a mere £10 million.

Not really worth doing until you had regular fast services that would like to actually be fast!

 

[Railwaysceptic]

Not really worth doing until you had regular fast services that would like to actually be fast!

Yes, but it's a chicken and egg situation to some extent. At present there's little hope for an express service from Lincoln stopping only at Newark Castle, Nottingham, Leicester, Birmingham New Street, Cheltenham and Gloucester because the speeds much of the time would be so pitiful. If Lincoln to Nottingham were a 90 mph railway, the feasibility would be quite different.

 

[Meerkat]

Yes, but it's a chicken and egg situation to some extent. At present there's little hope for an express service from Lincoln stopping only at Newark Castle, Nottingham, Leicester, Birmingham New Street, Cheltenham and Gloucester because the speeds much of the time would be so pitiful. If Lincoln to Nottingham were a 90 mph railway, the feasibility would be quite different.

I meant that it wasn’t worth looking at, but now LNER have 5 trains each way it matters a bit more.

 

[class26]

I meant that it wasn’t worth looking at, but now LNER have 5 trains each way it matters a bit more.

Sorry, being pedantic but LNER have 6 trains each way per day !

 

[adamedwards]

I would guess the clincher for this would be if increased speeds led to faster turnaround of trains and therefore a reduced number of units needed for Lincoln to Nottingham. I'm not sure how much saving on one unit is worth and how you then account for that against the cost of the embankment works, new track, etc. I'm sure there's a informed source out there.

Also I wonder if this is also linked to the flat crossing at Newark. Had the bridge beside the A46 been built, there would have been an incentive for a bigger project for the whole line. I know there was a plan when the road was built but no money.

 

[class26]

I know for sure it is not linked with the Newark flat crossing. The upgrade I quoted earlier in this thread is to get rid of the stretched of 50 mph between Newark and Lincoln.

I would think to bridge over the crossing will cost some very serious money. There is an ambition for 2 trains an hour between Lincoln and Nottingham though but only one path an hour (in each direction) over the ECML so at some point this is going to need looking at.

 

[Meerkat]

Do it properly with an all new two level station to create a proper interchange.

 

[TheBigD]

Do it properly with an all new two level station to create a proper interchange.

Is there actually room to do that though. The river Trent is very close by for starters.

 

[Meerkat]

Is there actually room to do that though. The river Trent is very close by for starters.

I reckon there is room but you would need a major redevelopment of the whole area around the new station. I do hope they make sure any A46 improvements don’t block ambitious rail plans.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

I reckon there is room but you would need a major redevelopment of the whole area around the new station. I do hope they make sure any A46 improvements don’t block ambitious rail plans.

How far away from the town centre is that crossing? Obviously one combined station brings a huge advantage but not if it's far off the beaten track. Stations in Bicester and Canterbury, for example, have never been combined because the crossing is way out of town.

 

[Meerkat]

How far away from the town centre is that crossing? Obviously one combined station brings a huge advantage but not if it's far off the beaten track. Stations in Bicester and Canterbury, for example, have never been combined because the crossing is way out of town.

You underestimate my ambition (and imaginary budget)!!
I am bringing the East west line over the Trent early to loop it south of the A46 at the north end of ECML platforms that start at the Lincoln Road Bridge. Some poor folk will be annoyed that their new houses get demolished but.....