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Nightstar coaching stock and VIA Rail

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asylumxl

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Reading up on the Nightstar project, it's claimed the carriages were designed around the BR MK4, yet were much heavier. Was this to reach a European/Channel Tunnel Safety Regulation?

Why was the stock not utilised in the UK, e.g. given to GNER to be operated by 91s? I'd have assumed the unnecessary ancillaries could have been removed, any conversions done and the interior fitted with normal seating?

I was also wondering if anyone had good quality pictures of the VIA Rail "Renaissance" carriages.

Cheers.
 
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GNERman

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GNER looked at them for strengthening stock after the crashes but instead focused on ex sleeper mk 3's and convert them to day coaches for HST's

this never happened though...

actually, ther's a thought, whatever happened to the old dsb "moon and stars" liveried mk 3 sleepers, because we've got one here at embsay...

http://www.cs.vintagecarriagestrust.org/se/CarriageInfo.asp?Ref=4103

http://www.embsayboltonabbeyrailway.org.uk/photos/tw61.jpg

http://www.embsayboltonabbeyrailway.org.uk/photos/tw62.jpg

http://www.embsayboltonabbeyrailway.org.uk/photos/ti46.jpg
 
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jamesontheroad

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Reading up on the Nightstar project, it's claimed the carriages were designed around the BR MK4, yet were much heavier. Was this to reach a European/Channel Tunnel Safety Regulation?

From the outside, the Nightstars (now called Renaissance carriages with VIA Rail) look more like mk. 3 than mk. 4 coaches. I believe they were derived from that basic standard because as they were expected to require extensive clearance throughout the UK on routes towards the tunnel, there wasn't a suitable European design of sleeper that could suit or fit our clearances... although that's just a vague recollection of something I remember reading.

In the end, they were so over-specified in terms of passenger comforts that they would have required a disproportionate amount of electric power and weighed too much for many lines. The requisite upgrading work was also identified just as Easyjet and Ryanair were (ahem) taking off. No-one thought the service had a chance in hell of appealing against direct low cost flights... if only it had been considered 10 or 15 years later.

I've used the Renaissance cars quite a few times, once for a round trip from Montréal to Halifax and a couple of other times on the 'Corridor', which is VIA's most densely served and basically linear route between southern Ontario, Toronto, Ottawa, Montréal and Québec City. I believe all Québec City / Montréal trains are Renaissance day coaches, whereas the other routes see a mix of the LRC stock and even some stainless steel heritage coaches. The corridor is the only part of the VIA network where those older coaches have been upgraded to provide business class seating as well as standard. There was, for a short while, an attempt to run a sleeper between Montréal and Toronto but the costs were too high, especially compared to extensive daytime trains, buses and flights on the same route.

I can't embed them here, but I have some photographs of the Renaissance coaches in service in Canada (taken during a month-long 20,000km roundtrip of the States and Canada that I did in 2005).

http://jamesbrownontherails.blogspot.com/ (beware, it's a blog, so it reads backwards!)

The Renaissance stock has been a pain in the arse for VIA Rail, because they required all kinds of modifications to cope with the extremely cold winters (they have operated in winters as cold as -40º C) and for mostly low level platforms. Although you can board at regular platform level in Montréal, every carriage needed expensive folding steps to be installed (a basic mechanical feature of every North American passenger car) to allow access from low level platforms. Amusingly, despite being designed for level platform access, they don't meet Canadian disability access requirements... a news report from 2003: http://www.cbc.ca/news/story/2003/03/28/Viadisability_030328.html

Day coach interior: http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/3191/127/1600/DSCN6200.jpg

2+1 seating throughout (when in business class on daytime trains you get more perks, like a hot meal and booze). With the exception of one or two facing seats at one end of the coach, all the seats face the same way (conveniently a preference in North America, where train passengers generally don't like facing backwards). However the seats can't be turned (unlike most current Amtrak stock in the states) and sit on top of a rather expressive podium shape, with a matching overhead rack. You step up onto your seat, with that luggage rack open towards you. The seat reclines by sliding down and forwards, and isn't particularly comfortable for overnight journeys (I managed a few hours kip during my two overnight journeys).

Another view: http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/3191/127/1600/DSCN6218.0.jpg

The service car:
http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/3191/127/1600/DSCN6200.jpg


This is a real bodge-job. I believe the Nightstars had this as a walk up counter space (the shutter is visible pulled down in the centre of the photo) but VIA wanted more room for seated passengers to sit down. A wall in the foreground was removed, IIRC for some kind of table or counter space there and a flatscreen TV was added for movies etc. I don't know if Amtrak still does this, but in their lounge cars a crappy PG family movie was played each night on overnight journeys, and this may have been such a perk.

Amusingly, I ordered something from the counter one night, and what did I see staring me in the face behind the counter... but an original British Rail spec microwave, complete with the crossing arrow motif on the door :D I know that when they showed up in Canada they were still fitted out as ready for European service, with dual-currency cash registers in the cafés, etc.

There was also a dining car, which I used once for breakfast (meals included for sleeper customers, not for seated passengers) and which may have also been a Canadian customisation of a day coach.

I never experienced the sleeper cabins. There's plenty of info on the VIA Rail pages for the Montréal - Halifax 'Ocean' train: http://www.viarail.ca/en/trains/atlantic-canada/montreal-halifax-ocean/train-cars ... just note the distinction between Renaissance and stainless steel cars. I thought the Ocean was all-Renaissance stock now, but apparently not. The 'Chaleur' that's hooked up with the 'Ocean' as far as Matapédia before travelling around the southern shore of the Gaspé peninsula is always (IIRC) stainless steel.

PS: just found more pics of the trip in my archive: will upload them as a set to Flickr.
PPS: Here is the set: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamesbrownontheroad/sets/72157622117074168/
 
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monkey

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...have to say as fan of sleeper trains, the spec does look luxorious. be nice if the current british sleepers could incorporate something like the renaissance carriages in the future...
 

jamesontheroad

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...have to say as fan of sleeper trains, the spec does look luxorious. be nice if the current british sleepers could incorporate something like the renaissance carriages in the future...

Does anyone know the expected lifespan of the mk. 3 sleepers?

If and when they reach they end of their lifespan, we're likely to see another series of political debates about their future. Scottish politicians will always campaign for the overnight connection to London, especially as we're decades away from seeing true HSR all the way to Scotland.

Perhaps the design for the mk. 3 replacement will offer another chance for overnight trains through the chunnel...?
 

monkey

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^^yeah that does worry me. I mean the last round of refurbs were obviously quite good, cos I did feel it was very comfortable and quite modern, but it does worry me when they come to the end of their lives what will happen, I'd be very sad to see the "deerstalker" go as it were.

I mean I guess they have longer than the current standard daytime hst's and coaching stokc as they were built much later during the 80's. reminds me actually, this br ad which I discovred during research for my project>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFiIyl2MyHM .

As for overnight trains through the tunnel, well the gov is planning on sell off most of lcr and eurostars assets as separate units, so it can be opened up to competition. I think DB were interested in opening up cross tunnel sleeper services to compliment the Nightline services they run on mainland europe already...
 

boing_uk

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One question springs to mind though... and its based on my earlier comment... who owns the design rights to these carriages? They are obviouslt a BR derivatvie,,,

Bearing in mind that they look very much like the Alstom Coradia coaches.. just look at those plug doors for one thing.. and the external appearance of a Cl180 (Ive not seen a 175 in the flesh) but the resemblance bodywise is astounding...

So.. what can Washwood Heath knock us out, given thay they are only (I still presume) maintainers rather than constructors?

Who can pinch these designs and knock us out something similar?
 

monkey

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^^according wiki, they're based on mark 4 coaches, hence the plug doors. they were built by metro-cammels successors gec-alstom, and were converted and customised for via rail, by bombardier...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
...found some pics of the nightstar when it was in storage, before conversion for via rail...

from: http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Launchpad/4375/nightstar/nighthome.htm

night2a.jpg


night1a.jpg


night5a.jpg

(notice the nightstar logo, which I didn't even realise had been designed)
Serv02.jpg

^^seated carriages, clearer pic of the logo....
inside1a.jpg

some interior pics...
inside2a.jpg
 
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Drsatan

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As for overnight trains through the tunnel, well the gov is planning on sell off most of lcr and eurostars assets as separate units, so it can be opened up to competition. I think DB were interested in opening up cross tunnel sleeper services to compliment the Nightline services they run on mainland europe already...

Unfortunately due to fire safety regulations (probably drawn up by people with no knowledge of railways), any train using the chunnel has to split in the middle during an emergency, with both parts driven out seperately. Other regulations mean that the Eurostar and the Le Shuttle services are the only passenger sets that can be used. Also due to DfT regulations stations in the UK would have to have fenced off dedicated international platforms with customs facilities, which would put the cost right up and be impossible at many stations e.g. Manchester Piccadilly due to a lack of platforms. The same rules would have to apply to any intermediate station, so a Manchester - Paris sleeper couldn't stop at Stockport, Crewe, Stafford etc. unless those stations had dedicated platforms. The train could stop at the French side of the chunnel (and vice versa) for customs inspections etc. but that's opening up a whole can of worms. In conclusion unless things are changed it's unlikely we'll have international services from other British cities to Europe.
 

monkey

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^^I'm not sure if they were intending to run them between regional towns, I kinda assumed just from london. but I'm assuming they could get approval for any new locomotives to run through the chunnel, althought the class 92 is already approved to run through it. Also I can't see a problem with sleeper train splitting in the tunnel in emergency?
 

jamesontheroad

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^^I'm not sure if they were intending to run them between regional towns, I kinda assumed just from london. but I'm assuming they could get approval for any new locomotives to run through the chunnel, althought the class 92 is already approved to run through it. Also I can't see a problem with sleeper train splitting in the tunnel in emergency?

The Nightstar and the Regional Eurostar sets would have both run from a number of regional UK cities. I believe Glasgow, Manchester and Leeds were three that were seriously considered, since at the time it was thought possible to section / fence off at least one platform at each termini. It wasn't necessarily the plan to have border control etc at lots of intermediate stations, since for European journeys it was considered acceptable for passengers to travel to those major regional centres by domestic service and change.

Incidentally, Manchester Piccadilly is right next to a perfect European terminus for the north-west - Manchester Mayfield. It could easily be refurbished and with a pedestrian bridge would allow for reasonable interchange with Piccadilly.
 

monkey

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The Nightstar and the Regional Eurostar sets would have both run from a number of regional UK cities. I believe Glasgow, Manchester and Leeds were three that were seriously considered, since at the time it was thought possible to section / fence off at least one platform at each termini. It wasn't necessarily the plan to have border control etc at lots of intermediate stations, since for European journeys it was considered acceptable for passengers to travel to those major regional centres by domestic service and change.

Incidentally, Manchester Piccadilly is right next to a perfect European terminus for the north-west - Manchester Mayfield. It could easily be refurbished and with a pedestrian bridge would allow for reasonable interchange with Piccadilly.
^^yeah the nightstars were meant to run from regional stations, but what I'm saying is I don't think it was in DB's plan for their planned servcies they are in talks with the gove to run, to run them from regional stations...
 

pinkpanther

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I think DB were interested in opening up cross tunnel sleeper services to compliment the Nightline services they run on mainland europe already...

Having travelled on the DB Nightline service from Brussels Midi to Berlin Hauptbahnhof (after a 2 hr nighttime wait at the uninspiring and grey Brussels Midi - something I really wouldn't wish on anyone) I'd be more than happy if DB started running Nightline services from St Pancras.

Plus, I have to admit the complementary champagne when we boarded was a very nice surprise! :)
 

Helvellyn

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So how many of each type of coach was there, and what were the specifications? Curious to find out some more about these coaches if possible.
 
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