No services between Sheffield and Nottingham

[woodmally1979]

So I have just been informed by our local paper that there is rail replacement works (once in 50 years apparently) around Sheffield and Chesterfield between the 6th and the 10th of January.

I was just wondering how much advance warning they were given. Sheffield Star only published this today. EMR after googling knew on the 30th of December.

Why did they give them so little notice. Surely a big project like this would be planned well in advance?

 

[weastebusdepot]

It's been known about since at least the 18th December. Just because the local paper has only just published the story, doesn't mean it wasn't planned long before.

 

[fishwomp]

railadvent has an article about it:

Sheffield trains set to be affected by track work

5-Day disruption across the midlands to affect EMR services

www.railadvent.co.uk

Couple of things I noted:
* claims to be 1970s and - in some places - jointed track being replaced. Would be interested to know where (separately, a trivia thread for remaining jointed track....?) that was - not the MML I'd hope, but perhaps some third line or loop somewhere?
* services from Nottingham to Liverpool not calling at Chesterfield. Actually from what I see on, say, 07/01, they seem to be calling at Chesterfield, so not sure if the plan has changed when someone realized that it was perfectly possible to stop there?

 

[Tram203]

I think EMR Liverpool - Nottingham - Norwich services are going to use Dore west curve, and use the time gained by not going in to and back out of Sheffield to pick up additional calls in the Hope Valley and at Dronfield which would usually be fulfilled by Northern whose services are either not operating or bustituted.

 

[duffield]

I think EMR Liverpool - Nottingham - Norwich services are going to use Dore west curve, and use the time gained by not going in to and back out of Sheffield to pick up additional calls in the Hope Valley and at Dronfield which would usually be fulfilled by Northern whose services are either not operating or bustituted.

Yes, I might have a little excursion to Grindleford (nice walk available near the station) in order to cover the west curve.

 

[yorksrob]

Very nice coordination of train operators coming up with a plan to provide a rail service between them.

More of this please.

 

[weastebusdepot]

TPE are running trains diverting Manchester Piccadilly to Sheffield via Huddersfield and Wakefield every two hours with a Piccadilly to Sheffield direct replacement bus on the hours in between.

 

[DDB]

What I'm confused about is that apparently due to this work they are also splitting the Nottingham to Matlock services at Derby. BUT both halves will be trains not buses so I can't think why they are doing this and how it is caused by the Sheffield works?

 

[tram21]

What I'm confused about is that apparently due to this work they are also splitting the Nottingham to Matlock services at Derby. BUT both halves will be trains not buses so I can't think why they are doing this and how it is caused by the Sheffield works?

I'm very confused about this too, it seems a bit counterproductive and is disrupting people who don't need to be disrupted. I assume it's for operational convenience...?

 

[Peterthegreat]

What I'm confused about is that apparently due to this work they are also splitting the Nottingham to Matlock services at Derby. BUT both halves will be trains not buses so I can't think why they are doing this and how it is caused by the Sheffield works?

Trains between Matlock and Derby are retimed to allow the retimed XC and EMR services to operate.

 

[JG89]

So I have just been informed by our local paper that there is rail replacement works (once in 50 years apparently) around Sheffield and Chesterfield between the 6th and the 10th of January.

I was just wondering how much advance warning they were given. Sheffield Star only published this today. EMR after googling knew on the 30th of December.

Why did they give them so little notice. Surely a big project like this would be planned well in advance?

The fact the Sheffield Star has published this information before the event is actually a vast improvement on their usual reporting timescales. Their normal MO is to give you half of the information spread between 500 adverts roughly 2 weeks too late.

 

[D365]

The upcoming closures have been advertised at Derby station since at least the last full week before Christmas.

 

[newtownmgr]

This kind of work is planned potentially up to two years in advance and would certainly been active planning over the last few months. Release of info to public will normally be a month to two months in advance once the final bits of paperwork etc is in place.

If you release it too early it will get ignored and forgotten by most of the travelling public.

 

[43055]

I'm very confused about this too, it seems a bit counterproductive and is disrupting people who don't need to be disrupted. I assume it's for operational convenience...?

Trains between Matlock and Derby are retimed to allow the retimed XC and EMR services to operate.

Yes. More specifically the northbound Cross Country which is normally due to leave Derby at xx45 is moved forwards to leave around xx39 and then picks up its normal times from Sheffield. The Matlock service then uses the normal Cross Country path at xx46 from Derby.

 

[Class 170101]

Its a shame that Northern have resorted to buses here, both between Manchester and Sheffield and between Nottingham and Sheffield.

The latter suggests it could have been possible for Northern to run to / from Nottingham via the Barrow Hill route as per EMR London services.

Realtime Trains | 1Y36 2227 Nottingham to Sheffield | 14/05/2025

Real-time train running information for 1Y36 2227 departure from Nottingham to Sheffield on 14/05/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

The other thing I have wondered have Northern not considered running a service between Manchester and Nottingham on a block like this and merging two service groups together? I think Northern are bit fortunate that EMR can cover the stops for them.

 

[Twingo37175]

Its a shame that Northern have resorted to buses here, both between Manchester and Sheffield and between Nottingham and Sheffield.

The latter suggests it could have been possible for Northern to run to / from Nottingham via the Barrow Hill route as per EMR London services.

Realtime Trains | 1Y36 2227 Nottingham to Sheffield | 14/05/2025

Real-time train running information for 1Y36 2227 departure from Nottingham to Sheffield on 14/05/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

The other thing I have wondered have Northern not considered running a service between Manchester and Nottingham on a block like this and merging two service groups together? I think Northern are bit fortunate that EMR can cover the stops for them.

I would guess the issue isn't route knowledge (given the late night return via "the old road"). I would assume the issue is capacity at the North of Sheffield station, especially as some of the services will then be crossing the junction just north of the station. Looks at certain times that there is a train leaving every 3 minutes (which I guess is standard interval allowed) alongside everything also arriving from the North as well.

 

[merry]

I would guess the issue isn't route knowledge (given the late night return via "the old road"). I would assume the issue is capacity at the North of Sheffield station, especially as some of the services will then be crossing the junction just north of the station. Looks at certain times that there is a train leaving every 3 minutes (which I guess is standard interval allowed) alongside everything also arriving from the North as well.

And 2 far more significant constraints:
(1) the long block section on the old GC/MSL from Woodburn Jcn to Woodhouse Jcn restricts capacity, at least 12 mins between trains.
(2) a Northern service from Hope Valley to Sheffield via Barrow Hill would have to reverse at Chesterfield P3. Not good use of capacity and takes extra time as well.
I'd estimate that the route via Barrow Hill could easily add more than 40 mins to the timings each way, compared to going direct (via Heeley). It is just a non-starter... the bus replacement will be faster! And that dies not happen often.

The only way a diversion between Manchester and Sheffield would work could be if we still had the Woodhead route. That is, of course, a whole other debate, not belonging here...
(and still does not help Hope Valley to Sheffield customers)

 

[stra200]

For 1 week I can go direct from Ilkeston to Hope Valley without having a 1 hour wait in Sheffield in both directions! Over 2 hr each way to 45 mins.

I appreciate this is awful for far more people, but so good in this case. I've basically given up on days out on that route. The wait, and northern cancellations on top of that....

 

[bunnahabhain]

Very nice coordination of train operators coming up with a plan to provide a rail service between them.

More of this please.

You're welcome.

I suggested two options when asked for my opinion, all stops NOT-HSG to connect into a GRN-MAN service if Northern were providing one for a same platform interchange. If not, all stops NOT-CLY to cover for them. Dronfield has a sporadic service during the day and evening but everywhere else is hourly. (Ilkeston misses the odd one too).

The two Sheffield to Norwich and one Norwich to Sheffield will run via Beighton.

 

[Class 170101]

And 2 far more significant constraints:

(2) a Northern service from Hope Valley to Sheffield via Barrow Hill would have to reverse at Chesterfield P3. Not good use of capacity and takes extra time as well.

I would suggest a Manchester to Nottingham service actually

I'd estimate that the route via Barrow Hill could easily add more than 40 mins to the timings each way, compared to going direct (via Heeley). It is just a non-starter... the bus replacement will be faster! And that dies not happen often.

I wouldn't suggest a Manchester to Sheffield service reversing at Chesterfield for the longer journey as you suggest. Though that being said some passengers may prefer that to the Rail Replacement Bus. See below for related point

The only way a diversion between Manchester and Sheffield would work could be if we still had the Woodhead route. That is, of course, a whole other debate, not belonging here...

Erm actually TPE are running some direct trains between Manchester and Sheffield via Wakefield Kirkgate, Huddersfield and Stalybridge on two hourly basis. It would be interesting to know how many people use the direct train vice Bus Replacement.

(and still does not help Hope Valley to Sheffield customers)

Can't help everyone unfortunately but the main flow between Manchester and Sheffield Centres is the most important here I would suggest.

 

[Nottingham59]

You're welcome.

I suggested two options when asked for my opinion, all stops NOT-HSG to connect into a GRN-MAN service if Northern were providing one for a same platform interchange. If not, all stops NOT-CLY to cover for them. Dronfield has a sporadic service during the day and evening but everywhere else is hourly. (Ilkeston misses the odd one too).

The two Sheffield to Norwich and one Norwich to Sheffield will run via Beighton.

NOT, HSG, GRN, MAN, CLY being Nottingham, Hathersage, Grindleford, Piccadilly, Chinley respectively.

 

[IBLRG]

0954 Sheffield Midland to Cleethorpes via Brigg service cancelled Monday to Friday due to path needed for 0956 XC service via Old Road (Woodhouse) to Chesterfield

 

[Scott W]

Think there will be a few surprised and frustrated passengers on Monday as IMO this has not been well advertised. Didn't see any station posters when travelling the week before Christmas, have only seen it appear once on EMR's X feed, and when I raised a query with Northern on the 19th of December they stated "we don't have timetables for this just yet I am afraid"

 

[M60lad]

Why is TPE only running Manchester-Sheffield via Huddersfield and Wakefield every 2 hours is it down to available paths or is it down to availability how many people sign the route?

 

[Mat17]

Not sure any Northern crews sign the curve from Dore.

Hope valley services are only signed by Piccadilly crews iirc and the line to Chesterfield isn't signed by Piccadilly, so they have to borrow EMR conductors...

 

[185143]

Why is TPE only running Manchester-Sheffield via Huddersfield and Wakefield every 2 hours is it down to available paths or is it down to availability how many people sign the route?

Probably a bit of both.

AFAIK, only Sheffield crews sign the route via Huddersfield.

 

[Killingworth]

Very nice coordination of train operators coming up with a plan to provide a rail service between them.

More of this please.

I agree, just a pity their publicity is disjointed.

Users at Dore were unable to book to Manchester from early in December. What's going on? Examination of RTT revealed the existence of the EMR timetable on their website and linked here. I assume that was circulated to the media. Northern have been somewhat less active as far as users along the Hope Valley have been concerned.

I'd add that my first thought was that running the hourly Northern from Piccadilly to Platform 1 at Dore would work better because there are regular (in theory 5 or 6 an hour) buses from there into Sheffield. Many Manchester commuters are already using Northern services and parking at Dore is free.

However by doing that the EMR service would have had 20 minutes or so to kill between Chesterfield and Stockport. The arrangement now made is OK for 5 days but for anything longer getting that little bit furher into Sheffield might be considered

 

[norbitonflyer]

A curiosity is that, according to the National Rail site, EMR trains between Derby and Sheffield will call at Chesterfield but Cross Country ones won't, although they will all presumably be using the same "Old Road" route. Any reason for this?

Engineering works: New Mills Central Sheffield | National Rail

Essential Track Upgrades: Significantly amended service between Chesterfield / Manchester Piccadilly and Sheffield from Monday 6 to Friday 10 January. See details of routes affected by planned engineering works, including when they take effect, alternative timetables, advice for alternative...

www.nationalrail.co.uk

 

[WildNorthlands]

Its a shame that Northern have resorted to buses here, both between Manchester and Sheffield and between Nottingham and Sheffield.

The latter suggests it could have been possible for Northern to run to / from Nottingham via the Barrow Hill route as per EMR London services.

Realtime Trains | 1Y36 2227 Nottingham to Sheffield | 14/05/2025

Real-time train running information for 1Y36 2227 departure from Nottingham to Sheffield on 14/05/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

The other thing I have wondered have Northern not considered running a service between Manchester and Nottingham on a block like this and merging two service groups together? I think Northern are bit fortunate that EMR can cover the stops for them.

But they would still have to run a bus to serve Dronfield.

 

[Dr Hoo]

I agree, just a pity their publicity is disjointed.

Users at Dore were unable to book to Manchester from early in December. What's going on? Examination of RTT revealed the existence of the EMR timetable on their website and linked here. I assume that was circulated to the media. Northern have been somewhat less active as far as users along the Hope Valley have been concerned.

I'd add that my first thought was that running the hourly Northern from Piccadilly to Platform 1 at Dore would work better because there are regular (in theory 5 or 6 an hour) buses from there into Sheffield. Many Manchester commuters are already using Northern services and parking at Dore is free.

However by doing that the EMR service would have had 20 minutes or so to kill between Chesterfield and Stockport. The arrangement now made is OK for 5 days but for anything longer getting that little bit furher into Sheffield might be considered

I understand that Platform 1 is the 'new' Westbound platform. There is no 'wrong direction' signalled move for this and no stop signal at the Sheffield end of the platform. I'm not even sure if there is enough overlap distance to the now-staggered Dore Station Junction/(Shown as Foxlow Junction on some modern plans). With Dore South Curve remaining in use for diverted EMR services and freight in both directions it would be a far-from-ideal layout to set up temporary hand signalling.