(Non-)Box junctions

[Bletchleyite]

Was in London today, and it occurred to me that there's a very dangerous "failure mode" that can occur at non-box-junction traffic lights, namely that pedestrians have a green light to cross but cars have passed the lights and were stuck queueing, resulting in them moving in conflict with pedestrians once the way clears, potentially unaware that they are now moving "against" a red depending where the repeater light is.

It occurred to me - should the law be changed to make all signalised junctions take on the rules of box junctions, i.e. you must not enter the junction until your exit is clear unless turning right and the only thing stopping you turning is oncoming traffic? I can't see much of a disadvantage, and it would be a safety gain. Or failing that just box-mark all signalised junctions?

 

[renegademaster]

Germany has an even worse way of doing junctions than this. The green man doesn't actually mean much, it just flashes a light at drivers which means drivers are supposed to give way to you ,but they often don't . Very confusing for an English tourist in Berlin

 

[Bletchleyite]

Germany has an even worse way of doing junctions than this. The green man doesn't actually mean much, it just flashes a light at drivers which means drivers are supposed to give way to you ,but they often don't . Very confusing for an English tourist in Berlin

In effect traffic light crossings in Germany are zebras (but you must not cross on a red). I generally find they are respected but you do have to walk out, there's no quaint British thing of letting people who are waiting go.

Germany also has the thing we have (technically) just introduced that a turning car must give way to pedestrians crossing at a non-signalised junction. I got very used to this when I lived in DE, and almost got run over several times on my return as a result.

 

[thejuggler]

A box junction is more than just yellow paint. There are specific regulations as to where and when they can be used.

I find 'Keep Clear' markings are more effective. A right turn into a local school was always blocked in a morning causing queues into and out of school and on the main road, A few weeks ago 'Keep Clear' markings were painted on the road and there is now always a gap.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

In my experience, 90% of drivers ignore yellow boxes at junctions anyway... so treating all junctions as if they have yellow boxes will do diddly-squat!

 

[Bletchleyite]

In my experience, 90% of drivers ignore yellow boxes at junctions anyway... so treating all junctions as if they have yellow boxes will do diddly-squat!

I suppose that depends where you are. They are mostly respected in London, largely because so many have cameras so failing to respect them will cost you fifty quid or so.

A box junction is more than just yellow paint. There are specific regulations as to where and when they can be used.

Regulations can of course be changed. It amazes me how often people in here seem to reply to posts considering them immutable.

Now we're out of the EU, pretty much every area of UK law can be changed at our Parliament's will.

If we can introduce a law banning leaving home within a few weeks, we can do this.

I find 'Keep Clear' markings are more effective. A right turn into a local school was always blocked in a morning causing queues into and out of school and on the main road, A few weeks ago 'Keep Clear' markings were painted on the road and there is now always a gap.

There isn't a "nice" way to do that on a typical traffic light junction, though - what you want is people not to pass the stop line until their exit is clear, so if the light changes while they're waiting there aren't any "uncontrolled" cars inside the junction to hit pedestrians who cross in good faith, particularly those with sight impairments that can't see the "errant" car.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

They are mostly respected in London, largely because so many have cameras so failing to respect them will cost you fifty quid or so.

Which is a good point. Unless anything is enforceable, it won't get respected.

Based on what I see daily in Epsom, the vast majority of congestion caused at junctions would be solved if every traffic light had a red light camera fitted - and if it was made strict liability on the registered keeper unless they can prove someone else was driving.

 

[thejuggler]

Regulations can be changed, but there have to be reasons why. Generally its because they are no longer effective. The Highways Act is nothing to do with the EU, we have always been able to change it and over the years the regs around provision of yellow box junctions have changed. If you want it changing start telling your MP.

One regulation I would change is the provision of zebra crossings, especially now priority has to be given to pedestrians at junctions. In the UK it can take years to get one built because we have an archaic system and complex design requirements. Some white paint should be enough as it is in most of Europe.

When my daughter started school there was a desperate need for a zebra crossing and the process began. It took 7 years! She had left junior school by the time it was eventually agreed and built.

 

[Bletchleyite]

One regulation I would change is the provision of zebra crossings, especially now priority has to be given to pedestrians at junctions. In the UK it can take years to get one built because we have an archaic system and complex design requirements. Some white paint should be enough as it is in most of Europe.

I am of the view that we should paint a zebra between dropped kerbs on all non-signalised road junctions to make it clear that that is to be treated as such, because just telling people it is simply isn't working. But yes as you say it'd need to be required to allow them without Belisha beacons.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Regulations can be changed, but there have to be reasons why. Generally its because they are no longer effective. The Highways Act is nothing to do with the EU, we have always been able to change it and over the years the regs around provision of yellow box junctions have changed. If you want it changing start telling your MP.

One regulation I would change is the provision of zebra crossings, especially now priority has to be given to pedestrians at junctions. In the UK it can take years to get one built because we have an archaic system and complex design requirements. Some white paint should be enough as it is in most of Europe.

When my daughter started school there was a desperate need for a zebra crossing and the process began. It took 7 years! She had left junior school by the time it was eventually agreed and built.

An issue with changing rules and regulations is that there's no way of ensuring that every road user knows and understands the changes. The pedestrian priority changes of a few years ago being a case in point. When they were announced, much of the coverage in the media was misleading and potentially dangerous, as it led pedestrians to assume they had the right of way by default when crossing roads, regardless of whether they were at a junction.

 

[Bletchleyite]

An issue with changing rules and regulations is that there's no way of ensuring that every road user knows and understands the changes. The pedestrian priority changes of a few years ago being a case in point. When they were announced, much of the coverage in the media was misleading and potentially dangerous, as it led pedestrians to assume they had the right of way by default when crossing roads, regardless of whether they were at a junction.

I guess that's an argument in favour of all signalised junctions becoming box junctions. But even that is sub-optimal, as depending where the crossings are placed it may not be possible to put the box covering the most important bit.

 

[cactustwirly]

Was in London today, and it occurred to me that there's a very dangerous "failure mode" that can occur at non-box-junction traffic lights, namely that pedestrians have a green light to cross but cars have passed the lights and were stuck queueing, resulting in them moving in conflict with pedestrians once the way clears, potentially unaware that they are now moving "against" a red depending where the repeater light is.

It occurred to me - should the law be changed to make all signalised junctions take on the rules of box junctions, i.e. you must not enter the junction until your exit is clear unless turning right and the only thing stopping you turning is oncoming traffic? I can't see much of a disadvantage, and it would be a safety gain. Or failing that just box-mark all signalised junctions?

Surely most junctions like this have a filter on the traffic light which stops issues like this.
Rather than reinventing the wheel there is often a simpler solution

 

[Bletchleyite]

Surely most junctions like this have a filter on the traffic light which stops issues like this.
Rather than reinventing the wheel there is often a simpler solution

A filter on the traffic light doesn't stop the issue I describe. What that deals with is confusion where you have two sets of lights close to one another. I'm talking about a single junction where queueing traffic means a car stops on the junction past the lights (and thus the light doesn't apply to them) which means they can quite legitimately (and potentially unknowingly) be driving towards a pedestrian crossing showing a green when the traffic starts to move.

What I propose is that it should be illegal to enter ANY signalised junction or pedestrian crossing unless your exit is clear, or turning right and the only thing preventing you doing so is oncoming traffic. (That's OK because it's normally one or two cars at most and they can go in the "overlap" time before the crossing goes green).

The other thing it'd avoid is where queueing traffic one way prevents traffic from the other way going straight on.

 

[cactustwirly]

A filter on the traffic light doesn't stop the issue I describe. What that deals with is confusion where you have two sets of lights close to one another. I'm talking about a single junction where queueing traffic means a car stops on the junction past the lights (and thus the light doesn't apply to them) which means they can quite legitimately (and potentially unknowingly) be driving towards a pedestrian crossing showing a green when the traffic starts to move.

What I propose is that it should be illegal to enter ANY junction unless turning right and the only thing preventing you doing so is oncoming traffic.

Where is the traffic queueing? If they are turning right then a filter arrow on the traffic lights at the end of the cycle solves this

 

[Bletchleyite]

Where is the traffic queueing? If they are turning right then a filter arrow on the traffic lights at the end of the cycle solves this

Imagine a signalised crossroads with a signalised pedestrian crossing on each of the four arms.

In one direction, there is solid queued traffic, including across the junction.

This results in two problems.
1. Annoying but not dangerous: the queueing traffic prevents traffic crossing at 90 degrees to it because it is blocking the road.
2. Dangerous: When the queue starts to move, if the lights are on red, the car "stranded" in the middle of the crossroads can legally move towards a crossing which has a green for pedestrians without having the slightest clue that it does (unless there are lots of pedestrians starting to cross).

The other solution I have seen to this, I think in Germany, is that when the crossing is on green a flashing amber light is shown to traffic at the crossing, so the car in this case would see a warning. But better to prevent the situation arising at all by making it an offence to get stranded on the junction, as it solves both problems - you must stop at the stop line until the exit has cleared per a box junction.

 

[bramling]

Was in London today, and it occurred to me that there's a very dangerous "failure mode" that can occur at non-box-junction traffic lights, namely that pedestrians have a green light to cross but cars have passed the lights and were stuck queueing, resulting in them moving in conflict with pedestrians once the way clears, potentially unaware that they are now moving "against" a red depending where the repeater light is.

It occurred to me - should the law be changed to make all signalised junctions take on the rules of box junctions, i.e. you must not enter the junction until your exit is clear unless turning right and the only thing stopping you turning is oncoming traffic? I can't see much of a disadvantage, and it would be a safety gain. Or failing that just box-mark all signalised junctions?

Surprised you’ve only just noticed this TBH, pretty much all traffic lights have this feature if traffic is “blocking back”. But generally drivers are responsible and know to wait if they see the green man is illuminated. Even in London this mostly holds true, though like everything behaviours in London have regressed in the last decade or so.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Surprised you’ve only just noticed this TBH, pretty much all traffic lights have this feature if traffic is “blocking back”. But generally drivers are responsible and know to wait if they see the green man is illuminated. Even in London this mostly holds true, though like everything behaviours in London have regressed in the last decade or so.

Not many signalised crossings in MK

 

[BayPaul]

Imagine a signalised crossroads with a signalised pedestrian crossing on each of the four arms.

In one direction, there is solid queued traffic, including across the junction.

This results in two problems.
1. Annoying but not dangerous: the queueing traffic prevents traffic crossing at 90 degrees to it because it is blocking the road.
2. Dangerous: When the queue starts to move, if the lights are on red, the car "stranded" in the middle of the crossroads can legally move towards a crossing which has a green for pedestrians without having the slightest clue that it does (unless there are lots of pedestrians starting to cross).

The other solution I have seen to this, I think in Germany, is that when the crossing is on green a flashing amber light is shown to traffic at the crossing, so the car in this case would see a warning. But better to prevent the situation arising at all by making it an offence to get stranded on the junction, as it solves both problems - you must stop at the stop line until the exit has cleared per a box junction.

Another part solution is to retime the junction so the direction most likely to be in this situation is after the pedestrian phase rather than before. It occurred to me yesterday on a similar situation where cars turning right always have to go after the red, and end up conflicting with pedestrians, whereas if the pedestrian phase was moved, they would just be blocking cars.

Regulations can be changed, but there have to be reasons why. Generally its because they are no longer effective. The Highways Act is nothing to do with the EU, we have always been able to change it and over the years the regs around provision of yellow box junctions have changed. If you want it changing start telling your MP.

One regulation I would change is the provision of zebra crossings, especially now priority has to be given to pedestrians at junctions. In the UK it can take years to get one built because we have an archaic system and complex design requirements. Some white paint should be enough as it is in most of Europe.

When my daughter started school there was a desperate need for a zebra crossing and the process began. It took 7 years! She had left junior school by the time it was eventually agreed and built.

Totally. I think this could revolutionise our streets. I love the way in Spain and France you can have a zebra crossing every few dozen yards, wherever a pedestrian might want to cross. It turns the streets from car dominated to an easy place to live.

 

[Bikeman78]

In effect traffic light crossings in Germany are zebras (but you must not cross on a red). I generally find they are respected but you do have to walk out, there's no quaint British thing of letting people who are waiting go.

Isn't that the standard pretty anywhere other than UK? Seems to be in Europe and the US. In Manhattan, it's quite difficult to turn right at many junctions owing to the sheer volume of pedestrians. Taxi drivers will push their luck but ultimately they seem to back down in my experience.

 

[BayPaul]

Isn't that the standard pretty anywhere other than UK? Seems to be in Europe and the US. In Manhattan, it's quite difficult to turn right at many junctions owing to the sheer volume of pedestrians. Taxi drivers will push their luck but ultimately they seem to back down in my experience.

I definitely prefer the UK system, where a green man means absolutely no cars on the crossing. Germany feels especially weird, where you wait patiently on a crossing of a side road with no cars and a red man to avoid illegal jaywalking, only for turning cars from the main road to start moving at the same time as you start walking!