Normal tickets vs contactless where contactless is accepted (TfL)

[blueberry11]

Are there any ways normal tickets are cheaper than contactless for journeys within the contactless zone in London? In other words, are you paying a tiny bit more for the convenience i.e. to skip buying in advance or at a TVM (ticket vending machine)? Edit: I mean on Network Rail and Crossrail (Elizabeth line) services, not the Underground/DLR.

I think that TFL are slowly moving away from normal tickets since they were introduced to Shenfield, Luton Airport and Reading? And how about when contactless goes further to Milton Keynes, Southend and Stansted (project oval)? Will it be more expansive to use contactless vs normal tickets this way?

When I say normal tickets, I mean those normal paper tickets as well as those from a PDF or app.

 

[hexagon789]

Are there any ways normal tickets are cheaper than contactless for journeys within the contactless zone in London? In other words, are you paying a tiny bit more for the convenience i.e. to skip buying in advance or at a TVM (ticket vending machine)?

I think that TFL are slowly moving away from normal tickets since they were introduced to Shenfield, Luton Airport and Reading? And how about when contactless goes further to Milton Keynes, Southend and Stansted (project oval)? Will it be more expansive to use contactless vs normal tickets this way?

When I say normal tickets, I mean those normal paper tickets as well as those from a PDF or app.

Often if one holds a railcard, a paper ticket can be cheaper as railcard discounts aren't on PAYG yet. I think Paper Travelcards were also mentioned as being more cost effective if one is doing more than a couple of Tube or Bus journeys.

 

[James H]

If I’m taking a short Thameslink journey at weekends, a single or return with Network Railcard discount is often better value than PAYG.

 

[Haywain]

I think Paper Travelcards were also mentioned as being more cost effective if one is doing more than a couple of Tube or Bus journeys.

That's only the case for railcard holders, although they may be more useful for those planning on spending a long time inside the system (train spotting, for example). In other cases the cpntactless cap is usually lower than the Travelcard price.

And how about when contactless goes further to Milton Keynes, Southend and Stansted (project oval)? Will it be more expansive to use contactless vs normal tickets this way?

Eventually, there should be a solution for linking railcards with contactless payment cards, at which point the number of people who benefit from using paper tickets will be quite small. However, there will continue to be edge cases where contactless is not the cheapest solution.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Eventually, there should be a solution for linking railcards with contactless payment cards, at which point the number of people who benefit from using paper tickets will be quite small.

Please don't hold your breath waiting for this to happen though

 

[hexagon789]

That's only the case for railcard holders, although they may be more useful for those planning on spending a long time inside the system (train spotting, for example). In other cases the cpntactless cap is usually lower than the Travelcard price.

Usually, but there are some exceptions.

And yes, I appreciate for most people it doesn't apply and PAYG is more cist effective for their plans/usage.

Of course when railcards eventually get added to PAYG, then most of the remaining cost advantages go and PAYG will then almost always be cheaper either way unless there are some odd anomolies that get missed.

Please don't hold your breath waiting for this to happen though

December 2025 was the most recent 'date' I saw. I can't remember what the originally planned date was though.

 

[Haywain]

Please don't hold your breath waiting for this to happen though

Hence the word eventually!!

December 2025 was the most recent 'date' I saw. I can't remember what the originally planned date was though.

It has slipped a lot further back than that, and I suspect that Phase 2 stations and use of railcards will not be happening at anything like the same time.

 

[hexagon789]

It has slipped a lot further back than that, and I suspect that Phase 2 stations and use of railcards will not be happening at anything like the same time.

C'est la vie...

 

[JonathanH]

Break of journey is available on paper tickets within London, but not on Oyster / Contactless although the use case for that working out cheaper overall is very limited.

 

[blueberry11]

Forgot to say I do not have a discount card yet (railcard) but I will get one soon as I do not regularly travel by train (around 12 or less every year).

Also I forgot they are still around like I thought they got rid of them in summer 2023.

With regards to linking railcards to bankcards, how will it work and will you be able to link two bankcards to a railcard?

Another issue with using barcoded tickets (they even started to appear on normal paper ones) is that many TfL stations do not use them and it is useless for Underground/Crossrail travel so good luck at Stratford.

If I do end up going between London and Reading once, I would use a normal ticket (hopefully does not have barcodes) which I should have the discount card ready. I love collecting paper tickets for my travel as I do not do so frequently. It is very similar to the tap on tap off situation on some buses where getting a normal ticket is still an option

 

[jon81uk]

Also I forgot they are still around like I thought they got rid of them in summer 2023.

TfL threatened to withdraw from the travelcard agreement as they didn't think the split between them and National Rail was fair, a new arrangement was negotiated. Railcards are a discount card for certain eligible people or journies and are seperate to travelcards.

With regards to linking railcards to bankcards, how will it work and will you be able to link two bankcards to a railcard?

No one knows yet and given it could be up to five years away I doubt we will know for some time.

Another issue with using barcoded tickets (they even started to appear on normal paper ones) is that many TfL stations do not use them and it is useless for Underground/Crossrail travel so good luck at Stratford.

e-tickets shouldn't be issued for TfL services anyway so if you select a journey where Underground or Elizabeth Line travel is needed. The Stratford oddity is where you travel on an operator that takes e-tickets like Greater Anglia but they don't operate the ticket barriers. I think TfL are looking to add barcode readers to those stations only where they share it with other operators.

 

[plugwash]

Are there any ways normal tickets are cheaper than contactless for journeys within the contactless zone in London?

Afaict if you consider stations that are within the contactless area but outside the numbered fare zones the answer is yes.

Usually for such journeys the oyster/contactless single is roughly half the corresponding paper return. This means that for single journeys oyster/contactless is usually (but not always!) cheaper. For return journys the price will usually be around the same but there are quite a few things that can tip the balance in favour of one or the other.

Firstly railcards and child fares. Railcard discounts can be quite significant, but there is currently no way to use railcards with contactless. Some railcards can be used with oyster, but my understanding is it's a pain to get your railcard loaded, not all railcards are eligable, and not all stations that offer contactless offer oyster. There are no child fares on contactless and while child fares exist on oyster actually getting them seems to be a pain.

Secondly the peak/off-peak restrictions can be different between oyster/contactless and paper tickets.

Thirdly my understanding is that there are no "super off peak" fares on oyster/contactless.

Fourthly the nature of oyster/contactless means that the handling of multiple routes works differently. Oyster/contactless can only distinguish between two routes in specific circumstances. Either when passengers are forced through gatelines, or in some limited cases where pink readers are used.

Fifthly there seem to be some plain old anomolies. Farringdon to Gatwick on oyster/contactless is £17.50 peak by the default route. While a paper ticket routed "not underground" is only £13.10. Granted the oyster/contactless fare has underground validity, but I can't think of any sensible route from Farringdon to Gatwick that would involve the underground and wouldn't trigger one of the alternative fares.

Sixthly split ticketing with oyster/contactless requires at a minimum, existing the system and re-entering and sometimes requires additional tricks to avoid unwanted out of station interchanges.

Seventhly the oyster/contactless system can sometimes join up journeys you would rather were treated seperately. Particularly if you make a tube journey in central London towards the end of the evening peak, followed by a rail journey out of london just after the evening peak they can end up joined into a single journey and charged at the peak fare. The London terminals have very long OSI times for tube to rail interchanges (presumablly because many of them have the waiting area outside the gateline).

 

[akm]

Secondly the peak/off-peak restrictions can be different between oyster/contactless and paper tickets.

You could say that oyster/contactless doesn't actually have any peak/off peak restrictions at all - you can always travel, it's just that what you pay varies by time. Unlike with am off peak paper ticket which potentially simply can't be used for travel at certain times.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You could say that oyster/contactless doesn't actually have any peak/off peak restrictions at all - you can always travel, it's just that what you pay varies by time. Unlike with am off peak paper ticket which potentially simply can't be used for travel at certain times.

It can be excessed, though.

 

[swt_passenger]

That's only the case for railcard holders, although they may be more useful for those planning on spending a long time inside the system (train spotting, for example). In other cases the cpntactless cap is usually lower than the Travelcard price.

Eventually, there should be a solution for linking railcards with contactless payment cards, at which point the number of people who benefit from using paper tickets will be quite small. However, there will continue to be edge cases where contactless is not the cheapest solution.

I can’t see it working in a straightforward manner for those features such as taking another 3 adults and 4 children with your Network Card, or making sure both users are present for jointly held cards such as 2 together.

 

[Fenchurch SP]

Occasionally when I've held a Zones 2 to 6 season I have bought a paper single ticket between New Cross Gate and Limehouse during the evening peak when the railcard discount would not be available on PAYG. I either walked or took the bus between London Bridge and Fenchurch Street so I would have been charged for two journeys using PAYG.

 

[TUC]

It is hard to see the justification for having(non-railcard) fares that are set higher than the contactless equivalent. It does feel like little more than catching out the unaware tourist.

 

[JonathanH]

It is hard to see the justification for having(non-railcard) fares that are set higher than the contactless equivalent. It does feel like little more than catching out the unaware tourist.

The justification is because the operator would prefer everyone to use Contactless, as that has clear operational advantages for it. TfL would very much like all payment to be by Oyster and Contactless if possible. Practically everyone with any power over the decision supports this.

 

[TUC]

The justification is because the operator would prefer everyone to use Contactless, as that has clear operational advantages for it. TfL would very much like all payment to be by Oyster and Contactless if possible. Practically everyone with any power over the decision supports this.

I agree too. My question was therefore what the justification was for non-contactless fares to be set higher?

 

[JonathanH]

My question was therefore what the justification was for non-contactless fares to be set higher?

To ensure that uptake of Oyster and Contactless was high. (I think that since introduction, non-Oyster fares have been allowed to increase at a greater rate also.)

 

[Wallsendmag]

I agree too. My question was therefore what the justification was for non-contactless fares to be set higher?

The extra cost of sale ?

 

[TUC]

The extra cost of sale ?

I doubt it's been thought through in that way, any more than in the rest of the country paper tickets are not more expensive than e-tickets.

To ensure that uptake of Oyster and Contactless was high. (I think that since introduction, non-Oyster fares have been allowed to increase at a greater rate also.)

But for other purposes, such as shopping, people use contactless simply for the convenience. They don't need lower prices to convince them to do so.

 

[Deerfold]

I doubt it's been thought through in that way, any more than in the rest of the country paper tickets are not more expensive than e-tickets.

That was exactly how it was thought through. PAYG was launched on Oyster in 2004, but didn't really take off until cash fares became around 50% more expensive in 2006.

In many places outside of trains they are, too. Many bus and tram companies have moved people to contactless or phone apps by offering discounts.

But for other purposes, such as shopping, people use contactless simply for the convenience. They don't need lower prices to convince them to do so.

My local bus company had nearly everyone using phone apps or buying a day ticket, but now fares are £2 each way using any payment method, almost everyone has resorted to paying on the bus (although mostly by card, now).

 

[Haywain]

I agree too. My question was therefore what the justification was for non-contactless fares to be set higher?

Isn't it obvious that it's punitive?

 

[TUC]

Isn't it obvious that it's punitive?

Is it punative or fares that have passively continued to exist?

That was exactly how it was thought through. PAYG was launched on Oyster in 2004, but didn't really take off until cash fares became around 50% more expensive in 2006.

In many places outside of trains they are, too. Many bus and tram companies have moved people to contactless or phone apps by offering discounts.


My local bus company had nearly everyone using phone apps or buying a day ticket, but now fares are £2 each way using any payment method, almost everyone has resorted to paying on the bus (although mostly by card, now).

That's still them paying by contactless, without the need for any other incentive.

 

[Deerfold]

That's still them paying by contactless, without the need for any other incentive.

But without the speed of London Oyster/contactless.

 

[Wallsendmag]

I doubt it's been thought through in that way, any more than in the rest of the country paper tickets are not more expensive than e-tickets.

If you think that hasn’t been thought of you’re mistaken.

 

[TUC]

If you think that hasn’t been thought of you’re mistaken.

That's fine if I'm mistaken. I still find it curious why it was considered a financial incentive was needed for contactless in London when so many people use that for many different payments these days? Just not having to queue up and buy a ticket is big incentive in itself.

 

[Sonic1234]

The financial incentive was for Oyster. Contactless came later, with the same fare as Oyster.

A queue for tickets implies people are buying paper tickets. The ticket office in a lot of suburban London stations is a ghost town, it must be so boring for the staff. The only stations where you see a decent amount of tickets sold are those with a good proportion of services out of the Zones, like East Croydon.

 

[eddp]

Coming from Gatwick Airport, an off-peak day travelcard route Thameslink Only is £18.30 (and a super off-peak for Weekends only is £15.20), while the off-peak daily cap on Oyster/Contactless is £23.70. It's been the case as long as I can remember that it's a fair bit cheaper to get a paper Travelcard if you're going to use Thameslink into London, and even if you want to go to Victoria, given the saving it is often worth changing at East Croydon for a fast Victoria service.

For a single journey, PAYG does seem to be cheaper than a paper ticket though.