Northern 180s - why not use them all

[TheWalrus]

Northern currently have 3 180s, of which 2 are diagrammed and 1 is reserved for maintenance I believe? Mon-Fri only. Why don't they use all 3 180s SX, then have them all reserved for maintenance on Saturday and Sunday? This could be done by a 180 replacing a diagram operated by another DMU(s) where extra capacity is needed, then if the 180 fails, the original unit could be drafted in.

Or the 3rd 180 could be used only at busy peak time services?

What is everyone's views on this?

Cheers

Ryan

 

[driver9000]

The 180s are looked after by a dedicated team at NH. To use all 3 sets everyday and maintain them at weekends wouldn't be possible because they wouldn't get through all 3 sets before having to return 2 of them to Blackpool for the morning trips on the Monday. The 3rd 180 is the one booked for exam/spare the exams I'm told are quite long jobs, if a 180 in traffic fails the spare is often sent out and the demic sent to NH for attention where they try to swap them back before the end of the day. Adding an extra diagram would require additional crews to be trained on them - it's a 6 day course for drivers, and only 2 depots sign them. Using all 3 sets would be a bad move as you then have no cover for some very busy services which do need the capacity of the 180. The trains are funded by the PTE which is why they don't run at weekends.

 

[TheWalrus]

The 180s are looked after by a dedicated team at NH. To use all 3 sets everyday and maintain them at weekends wouldn't be possible because they wouldn't get through all 3 sets before having to return 2 of them to Blackpool for the morning trips on the Monday. The 3rd 180 is the one booked for exam/spare the exams I'm told are quite long jobs, if a 180 in traffic fails the spare is often sent out and the demic sent to NH for attention where they try to swap them back before the end of the day. Adding an extra diagram would require additional crews to be trained on them - it's a 6 day course for drivers, and only 2 depots sign them. Using all 3 sets would be a bad move as you then have no cover for some very busy services which do need the capacity of the 180. The trains are funded by the PTE which is why they don't run at weekends.

OK cheers. Will Northern be keeping the 3 they currently have? Also will they be interested in obtaining the other 2 sets?

 

[MCR247]

OK cheers. Will Northern be keeping the 3 they currently have? Also will they be interested in obtaining the other 2 sets?

Well I'd presume they'd be interested for any more stock, but whether they'd get it is another question

 

[driver9000]

Current plans see them leaving the fleet in December. The other 2 sets joining are very unlikely now unless the plans change again.

 

[TheWalrus]

Current plans see them leaving the fleet in December. The other 2 sets joining are very unlikely now unless the plans change again.

Any idea where the 3 will go, and what Northern will receive in return?

 

[northwichcat]

Any idea where the 3 will go, and what Northern will receive in return?

The 3x180s are East Coast's trains subleased to Northern so East Coast need to either sort out new subleases, use them or terminate the lease.

Northern are getting the 7x142s back from FGW as FGW are getting LO 150s to replace them. Northern have reportedly asked DfT for larger replacement carriages (Pacers having 15.5m carriages opposed to the Turbostars which have 23m carriages) but they probably won't get them.

 

[MCR247]

But the 142s from GW won't get to northern until at Dec 2011 at the rate bombardier are going. If anyone at the DfT gives them another contract they should be shot

 

[CosherB]

xxxxx

 

[Geezertronic]

xxxxx

We didn't know you cared

 

[tbtc]

Northern are getting the 7x142s back from FGW

...and losing some 156s to EMT

As for "why don't Northern use all 180s every weekday", just look at the mess Grand Central have made of their Bradford service. The 180s being as temperamental and "non-standard" as they are, it's no bad thing to keep one in reserve. Hard when you only operate three in the first place, since that "spare" one is a bigger percentage, but they are unreliable units, and I think Northern are doing the right thing

 

[MCR247]

But they get some 150s from London Midland so they still gain some

 

[tbtc]

But they get some 150s from London Midland so they still gain some

...yup, but bear in mind that Northern also don't get "their" 158s back from Scotrail (the ones that Scotrail won't need when the Bathgate line is wired), so the overall result is:

Gain 142s
Gain 150s

Lose 156s
Lose 158s
Lose 180s​

To be fair, which would you rather have? The 142s and 150s? Or the 156s, 158s and 180s?

 

[northwichcat]

...yup, but bear in mind that Northern also don't get "their" 158s back from Scotrail (the ones that Scotrail won't need when the Bathgate line is wired), so the overall result is:

Gain 142s
Gain 150s

Lose 156s
Lose 158s
Lose 180s​

To be fair, which would you rather have? The 142s and 150s? Or the 156s, 158s and 180s?

It is the 7x142s that are to replace the 180s. FGW are to release them as soon as they've had sufficient 150s from LO. Later on Northern will receive 8x150s from LM and will have to send 4x156s to EMT. This is supposed to mean that some peak trains see more seating. I think it is Liverpool-Manchester and Hope Valley services that are due to see the extra seats.

 

[MCR247]

Hope valley? Are they that busy? The stoppers? Because the 156s going to EMT should mean fast trains from Sheffield - Manchester should get more seats because the 156s mean all locals can be run with 153s or 156s meaning 158s can almost be solely focused on Liverpool - Norwich

 

[tbtc]

It is the 7x142s that are to replace the 180s

7 x 142 = 14 coaches
3 x 180 = 15 coaches

142 coaches are a good bit shorter though

 

[MCR247]

But at least the 142s will have all 7 in service all day opposed to 2 in service?

 

[tbtc]

But at least the 142s will have all 7 in service all day opposed to 2 in service?

If you assume they have to keep one "spare" for maintenance, then that's still twelve 15m Pacer coaches vs ten "normal length" 180 coaches

FGW come out of this deal a lot lot better than Northern

 

[MCR247]

Maybe they'll get to keep them and gain 2 more if EC don't want them though? But also if they do go in December what are NT going to do for almost a year?

 

[tbtc]

Maybe they'll get to keep them and gain 2 more if EC don't want them though?

Five would be a lot better, as they could presumably risk using four out of five (rather than two out of three, at the moment)

if they do go in December what are NT going to do for almost a year?

This is the worry. The 172s won't release the 142s/ 150s in the short term, but the 180s are going shortly - does anyone know when the 156s go to EMT? Are they the last piece of the jigsaw?

 

[MCR247]

156s were planned to go to EMT in 2012, but I think that will change on when Northern have sufficient stock