Northern Advance start short query

[RochdalePioneers]

I am looking to make a particular journey, where Northern offer an advance for that journey from the parent station in a station group but not from my station 5 minutes down the line which is also in the same station group. Standard Flexible fares on this journey are identical from both stations- which makes sense as both are in the same group. Yet no advance fares are available from my station, only from the station which the station group is named for

So, is this a scenario where the fares manual guidance comes into play:
"Q: Can a passenger alight short of the destination on their Advance ticket, or board
after the origin shown on their Advance ticket but on the same booked train?
A: Although Advance tickets are intended to be used only between the origin and
destination stations shown on the ticket, there may be occasions where a passenger joins
the correct train but at a later station, or alights earlier than the indicated destination.
Although this is not strictly in accordance with the rules for Advance tickets, the
Rail industry has agreed that in such cases, no additional fare should be charged (unless
there is clear evidence of intent to try and avoid a higher fare)."

I could make a pointless 5 minute journey from my station to the parent station in the group, wait 30 minutes, then get the train back. I suspect tickets won't be checked in those 5 minutes in either direction. So if I bought the advance, boarded one stop/5 mins late and they had checked tickets, would it pass? Again, there is no difference in normal ticket price between the two stations both in the same station group. Its just that Northern have chosen not to create advance tickets for the two satellite stations in the group, only the parent.

 

[JonathanH]

Its just that Northern have chosen not to create advance tickets for the two satellite stations in the group, only the parent.

This is precisely the scenario why advance tickets are not allowed for starting short or finishing early. Northern have decided that the market needs fares at a lower level between some of its major stations and that the market at smaller stations can support the walk up price.

To be safe you would travel to the major station.

 

[Mathew S]

I am looking to make a particular journey, where Northern offer an advance for that journey from the parent station in a station group but not from my station 5 minutes down the line which is also in the same station group. Standard Flexible fares on this journey are identical from both stations- which makes sense as both are in the same group. Yet no advance fares are available from my station, only from the station which the station group is named for

So, is this a scenario where the fares manual guidance comes into play:
"Q: Can a passenger alight short of the destination on their Advance ticket, or board
after the origin shown on their Advance ticket but on the same booked train?
A: Although Advance tickets are intended to be used only between the origin and
destination stations shown on the ticket, there may be occasions where a passenger joins
the correct train but at a later station, or alights earlier than the indicated destination.
Although this is not strictly in accordance with the rules for Advance tickets, the
Rail industry has agreed that in such cases, no additional fare should be charged (unless
there is clear evidence of intent to try and avoid a higher fare)."

I could make a pointless 5 minute journey from my station to the parent station in the group, wait 30 minutes, then get the train back. I suspect tickets won't be checked in those 5 minutes in either direction. So if I bought the advance, boarded one stop/5 mins late and they had checked tickets, would it pass? Again, there is no difference in normal ticket price between the two stations both in the same station group. Its just that Northern have chosen not to create advance tickets for the two satellite stations in the group, only the parent.

I think you've quoted the vital sentence yourself: "unless there is clear evidence of intent to try and avoid a higher fare." I can't think of a clearer example that what you've written of intending to avoid a higher fare.

 

[RochdalePioneers]

Surely it's a missing fare - had they set it the fare would be the same price. Anyway, I have found another route to "avoid the higher fare" buy buying the advance from 3 stops further on and a single to there. Its a few pounds more than the missing fare would be but half the flexible fare I am avoiding

 

[yorkie]

I could make a pointless 5 minute journey from my station to the parent station in the group, wait 30 minutes, then get the train back. I suspect tickets won't be checked in those 5 minutes in either direction. So if I bought the advance, boarded one stop/5 mins late and they had checked tickets, would it pass? Again, there is no difference in normal ticket price between the two stations both in the same station group. Its just that Northern have chosen not to create advance tickets for the two satellite stations in the group, only the parent.

Officially you do have to do the double-back.

For starting short, there isn't really any way around this if you want to be fully valid.

But on the return leg, you could show all tickets to the Guard and say "Do I need to double back, or can I finish my journey at X?" and the chances are you will be given permission to finish short, which would validate it as you'd be following the instructions of staff.

Surely it's a missing fare - had they set it the fare would be the same price. Anyway, I have found another route to "avoid the higher fare" buy buying the advance from 3 stops further on and a single to there. Its a few pounds more than the missing fare would be but half the flexible fare I am avoiding

Write to them or Tweet them asking if it's a missing fare, and if they can fix it, and if there is any workaround you can do until it is fixed.

If they authorise you to buy a longer ticket, and start short, that would validate the fare for starting short as you would be following instructions.

If it was a missing fare, and you are confident Northern would add it, there is no harm posting it here. In the case of many train companies (though admittedly probably not in the case of Northern), errors posted here do tend to get fixed!

 

[RochdalePioneers]

Its Northern Advance tickets. Through trains run from Middlesbrough to Carlisle. I can buy an advance from Middlesbrough but not from Thornaby, despite Thornaby being in the same station group as Middlesbrough and every train stopping there. Advances are basically set up from principal stations, so Boro, Hartlepool, Sunderland, but not any intermediate stations even missing out Heworth which is a park and ride railhead.

My point on why I think it and others are missing fares. All fares are singles to Carlisle, advances the 2nd cheapest set:
Middlesbrough: SDS £26.20, ADV £11.70
Thornaby: SDS £26.20
Stockton: SDS £26.20
Seaton Carew: SDS £21.60
Hartlepool: SDS £21.60 ADV £11.20
Seaham: £18.90
Sunderland: £18.90, ADV £9.80

I will contact Northern to query it

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Its Northern Advance tickets. Through trains run from Middlesbrough to Carlisle. I can buy an advance from Middlesbrough but not from Thornaby, despite Thornaby being in the same station group as Middlesbrough and every train stopping there. Advances are basically set up from principal stations, so Boro, Hartlepool, Sunderland, but not any intermediate stations even missing out Heworth which is a park and ride railhead.

My point on why I think it and others are missing fares. All fares are singles to Carlisle, advances the 2nd cheapest set:
Middlesbrough: SDS £26.20, ADV £11.70
Thornaby: SDS £26.20
Stockton: SDS £26.20
Seaton Carew: SDS £21.60
Hartlepool: SDS £21.60 ADV £11.20
Seaham: £18.90
Sunderland: £18.90, ADV £9.80

I will contact Northern to query it

I don't think it's unintentional. Northern price their Advances aggressively depending on market conditions. Where there is little or no competition from other modes of transport or other operators they have little incentive to set any Advances, and for such cases where they have done so they have tended to price Advances at a higher rate than for the longer throughout journey.

 

[Starmill]

I think there's actually a very good chance that one is unintentional. The market for Middlesbrough to Carlisle is about the same as from Thornaby. If you had asked about other situations e.g. Sandbach to Manchester, then it would be pretty obvious that that's totally inentional!

Northern introduced and removed large numbers of Advances for routes where they were the only operator, e.g. Cross Gates to York and Holmes Chapel to Manchester. Clearly they came to the conclusion after a trial period that it was more profitable to charge everyone the walk-up fare. Probably unsurprisingly.

Only recently have they begun to join multiple routes up. For example, York to Manchester Advance tickets are now available, despite the fact that I've been using Northern Advance tickets to get between York and Manchester for years, you just had to split at Leeds.

Notably, TransPennine Express withdrew all of their Advance tickets from York to Warrington when they stopped serving Warrington Central last year. This doesn't make a great deal of sense given you only need a very short connection from Newton-le-Willows to get to Warrington off a TPE service, but whatever. Northern have now added some, which means they're the only provider of them.

Neither of them bother to offer Advance tickets for loads of journeys still. For example, Harrogate to Liverpool. Harrogate to Manchester was introduced for a while but then removed. They were weirdly overpriced too.

There are a number of similar issues in your area. For example, Saltburn to Hexham has Advance tickets, but not Longbeck to Hexham. Middlesbrough to Carlisle has Advance tickets, so does Newcastle to Whitehaven, so does Newcastle to Carlisle. But not Middlesbrough to Whitehaven. I think part of the issue is building up from next to nothing at the start of the franchise, they are only doing so much work on them at once. It was a BIG deal when Manchester to Leeds was first made available in 2014!