Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
I went into Leeds from my local station today. To meet some former colleagues for lunch. The station is unstaffed and has one ticket machine. Although arriving in good time I was unable to access the machine as the woman using it was unfamiliar but was determined to use it. A queue had built up when the train arrived. When the guard opened the doors I mentioned the problem to which his response was to encourage everyone to get on board and he subsequently issued tickets on the train. He was a jovial chatty sort of chap and I couldn't help thinking how good his customer service was.
Approximately the same time one of my colleagues was boarding a train at Garforth. The booking office was shut and he couldn't access the machine, but again no problems buying a ticket from the guard.
Shortly afterwards another colleague boarded a train at Garforth. The guard never came round so she went to the excess fares office by the barriers, intending to buy a return ticket there. However the staff there wouldn't let her pay, accused her of being a fare dodger, and made her pay a £100 penalty fare.
I remember queing for a ticket at my local station ticket office a while back. I was 2nd in the queue. I arrived 10 minutes before my train was due. It is a small station on the Merseyrail network with a booking office and no ticket vending machine. The person in front of me being served was an elderly lady trying to ammend a ticket she had bought for a long distance journey ( and the return a few days later) the following week. By the time she had finished my train was pulling in and there was a considerable queue forming behind me. After buying my ticket I head off to the platform to see the train disappearing into the distance. Only a 15 minute wait for the next one luckily. So I arrived in plenty of time, queued for 10 minutes, and still missed the train all because of 1 transaction taking a while. Officially I cant board without a valid ticket as there are facilities available. But is it fair to expect a customer to delay their journey by 15 minutes because of a queue in the booking office? Probably not. Would it have been good of the booking office staff to ask the elderly lady to hold on a minute while the customers travelling now are sorted out? I think so - If I had got fed up of waiting and gone for the intended train to avoid delay, would the Carlisle Rent-a-thug officers issue a penalty fare? - I have no doubt they would.
The issue is distinguishing between those who have arrived in plenty of time, and those trying it on as an excuse for a free ride - a bit more discretion would be nice! Im a guard, and get a lot of people let in by gateline staff at barriered stations without a ticket as their train is about to leave, I just sell them a ticket!
The issue is distinguishing between those who have arrived in plenty of time, and those trying it on as an excuse for a free ride - a bit more discretion would be nice! Im a guard, and get a lot of people let in by gateline staff at barriered stations without a ticket as their train is about to leave, I just sell them a ticket!
Yes - in any system someone has to have decided (or the combination of decisions made will lead to) what will happen in circumstances where the system doesn't work entirely as intended. There is some logic to the position that a person must have a ticket - or have been entirely unable to obtain one - before getting on a train, though in these kinds of circumstances that puts passengers at a detriment for the benefit of the overall system. The alternative - such as a system where a passenger only has to pay if an on-train ticket seller gets to them before they get off - is inevitably going to lead to significantly less revenue. Which of those is preferable is one of overall system policy. With the near-ubiquity of mobile phones now, I wonder if a future ticketing system could enable passengers to check into a train before they board it, as a promise to pay the correct fare - a sort of virtual permit to travel/promise to pay - and only where a passenger has neither ticket nor electronic check-in or it's suspected that they've delayed checking in until after the train's left that a penalty fare is issued.
As it stands, it seems that the correct response to a long wait at a ticket office or machine is to miss a train and travel later, unless an e-ticket is available and obtainable. Which is unfortunate!
The future is already here and has been for a while, it's called eTickets!
You don't even particularly need a smartphone, you can purchase them online (several weeks in advance if you so desire) and print the code out if you so desire well before you get anywhere near the station
There perhaps does need to be some sort of digital 'promise to pay' option for passengers wishing to pay with pounds and pence rather than faffing about with a TVM to obtain one although I'm pretty sure I read that is in the pipeline at some point - although the reality is the average passenger is not paying with cash these days
Certain Northern guards could actually do with reducing their 'good customer service' and rather than issuing on board tickets with no questions asked time after time when someone whips out their iPhone 14 Pro Max to buy a ticket on board using Apple Pay instead educate them on the buy before you board policy
Tickets need to be bought before getting on the train, and unfortunately a "long queue" does not provide a legal excuse. Whilst some members of staff will sell tickets onboard, this is a concession, and these tickets will bear a warning (on the back) that failure to buy in advance could have led to a Penalty Fare.
In the MerseyRail case quoted by @L401CJF above, e-Ticketing is not an option. MerseyRail do not accept e-Tickets. Tickets for journeys on MerseyRail can be bought from online retailers, but not a full range of tickets, and any that can be bought have to be fulfilled by ToD, by queueing up at the ticket office. Very few MerseyRail stations have TVMs, and where they do exist they are not capable of issuing tickets purchased online through the normal ToD process.
Tickets need to be bought before getting on the train, and unfortunately a "long queue" does not provide a legal excuse. Whilst some members of staff will sell tickets onboard, this is a concession, and these tickets will bear a warning (on the back) that failure to buy in advance could have led to a Penalty Fare.
It’s particularly annoying how it’s Northern’s own machines being part of the issue. They’re unresponsive, hard to see in the sun, generally full of bugs, fail to register touch, and slow.
They’re incredibly frustrating. If you close offices and replace with those crap machines, staff need to show more discretion
Well of course you cannot get permission from staff as there are none at many stations. You could ask the guard before boarding if you can find them but getting something in writing from them is unlikely, you would have to video the conversation. Even then there is no mitigation in law for not buying a ticket due to a long queue only some half arsed non contractual charter. I can see the TOCs' not wanting to agree to a legal max queue time as people would just use this as an excuse when challenged without a ticket and the idea of people filming their queue time is frankly ridiculous although the only way at present to prove a long wait.
It’s particularly annoying how it’s Northern’s own machines being part of the issue. They’re unresponsive, hard to see in the sun, generally full of bugs, fail to register touch, and slow.
They’re incredibly frustrating. If you close offices and replace with those crap machines, staff need to show more discretion
I've been having problems with a Northern ticket machine at my local station since last summer. The machine works fine until you arrive at the payment stage, but the card payment module doesn't work for either Chip & PIN or Contactless. At one point Northern thought that they had resolved the issue, but alas not. I don't know whether other machines are affected, or whether I'm unlucky and that it is just my station.
I hope Northern are giving the manufacturer some grief about it!
The future is already here and has been for a while, it's called eTickets!
You don't even particularly need a smartphone, you can purchase them online (several weeks in advance if you so desire) and print the code out if you so desire well before you get anywhere near the station
I've had more issues travelling on e-tickets than I have traditional paper tickets.. being logged off the app constantly, tickets not loading correctly, phone dying and no charging facilities being available etc.
I don't have access to a printer, the same as many other people in the country, how do you propose I simply print off the ticket?
e-tickets are good for some people, but not great for everyone. Paper tickets purchased from a ticket office work perfectly fine and accept a range of payment forms too, not just card.
The issues around queueing to buy a paper ticket imply that there aren't enough facilities at the stations to buy the tickets, we need more, not less (which is what would happen with your proposition that we all move to e-tickets)..!
The more people that have and use etickets the more time and space there is for others to use the ticket office and machines to get their tickets on a dead tree.
It’s particularly annoying how it’s Northern’s own machines being part of the issue. They’re unresponsive, hard to see in the sun, generally full of bugs, fail to register touch, and slow.
They’re incredibly frustrating. If you close offices and replace with those crap machines, staff need to show more discretion
Spot on
Many years ago in BR North Eastern Region days I spent some time training in Selby Booking office. The office had a large range of Edmundson type pre-printed card tickets, and failing that we could write out a paper ticket to anywhere.
However I reckon that 90+% of the tickets sold were day returns either to Leeds or York. For these we had a simple machine which had continuous rolls of pre-printed tickets (ie Adult day return to Leeds, Adult day return to York, and the child equivalents). I forget the name of the machine but it allowed very quick ticket issuing.
Fast forward to 2023 and watching people at my local station I reckon 90%+ just want returns to Leeds in this case either peak or offpeak, with or without a railcard.
The current Northern machines are impressive in that they seem to be able to do almost anything that a staffed ticket office can do. But they're too complicated for the occasional user who doesn't want/need
anything more than a simple machine with 3 or 4 buttons needing to be pressed.
Why do people on here want to make it difficult for customers to buy the product, and drive them away?
The current Northern machines are impressive in that they seem to be able to do almost anything that a staffed ticket office can do. But they're too complicated for the occasional user who doesn't want/need
anything more than a simple machine with 3 or 4 buttons needing to be pressed.
I already find Northern's TVMs slow enough what with the 'artificial' need to send purchasers down the line of selecting trains of choice on routes where many users are simply going to be buying a flexible walk up type ticket. Whilst I haven't used it (should have tried while killing time at...
I think everyone here knows what the legal situation is - that doesn't change the fact that the legal situation is unreasonable and something needs to change!
I already find Northern's TVMs slow enough what with the 'artificial' need to send purchasers down the line of selecting trains of choice on routes where many users are simply going to be buying a flexible walk up type ticket. Whilst I haven't used it (should have tried while killing time at...
I think everyone here knows what the legal situation is - that doesn't change the fact that the legal situation is unreasonable and something needs to change!
There can be no possible doubt there, but unfortunately there's nothing anyone other than Parliament (or, where Parliament have delegated authority to them, Ministers) can do about it.
To be fair I've not seen a report that they try to issue Penalty Fares for people who come from stations where there's not a ticket machine, but it's common for them to do so if the ticket machine wasn't working or wasn't able to sell the ticket which the customer requires.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Yes of course but if you look at say the London Overground Worldline ticket machines they're able to do everything that Northern's can (except that their list of rovers is curated) and also much more, and you can still select a ticket much more quickly from those than you can using the Quick Buy function.
Fast forward to 2023 and watching people at my local station I reckon 90%+ just want returns to Leeds in this case either peak or offpeak, with or without a railcard.
The current Northern machines are impressive in that they seem to be able to do almost anything that a staffed ticket office can do. But they're too complicated for the occasional user who doesn't want/need
anything more than a simple machine with 3 or 4 buttons needing to be pressed.
Why do people on here want to make it difficult for customers to buy the product, and drive them away?
Indeed, and in the most customer-focused areas, the market for such short simple journeys has pretty much entirely transitioned away from actually having to specify what you want and onto pay as you go or tap on tap off depending on what you want to call it. How many people actually want to use an app or ticket machine for journeys like the ones mentioned (Garforth to Leeds etc) rather than just tapping their card?
I went into Leeds from my local station today. To meet some former colleagues for lunch. The station is unstaffed and has one ticket machine. Although arriving in good time I was unable to access the machine as the woman using it was unfamiliar but was determined to use it. A queue had built up when the train arrived. When the guard opened the doors I mentioned the problem to which his response was to encourage everyone to get on board and he subsequently issued tickets on the train. He was a jovial chatty sort of chap and I couldn't help thinking how good his customer service was.
Approximately the same time one of my colleagues was boarding a train at Garforth. The booking office was shut and he couldn't access the machine, but again no problems buying a ticket from the guard.
Shortly afterwards another colleague boarded a train at Garforth. The guard never came round so she went to the excess fares office by the barriers, intending to buy a return ticket there. However the staff there wouldn't let her pay, accused her of being a fare dodger, and made her pay a £100 penalty fare.
If she was actually being accused of being a fare dodger, she would have been prosecuted.
Unfortunately if the machine at Garforth was working, a Penalty Fare is correct. The only ways round this are to arrive an unspecified length of time (perhaps you could ask Northern how long you need to allow; I doubt they'll answer though!) or use your phone to buy an e-ticket. If you use the forum's site, then a tiny bit of the money goes to the upkeep of the forum, but the overall price you pay is no more than if you bought it from Northern directly.
Northern treat their customers as scum compared to how customers would be treated in almost any other industry. You are entitled to think it's disgusting but I can assure you that Northern won't be at all bothered and don't care what their customers think.
Spot on
Many years ago in BR North Eastern Region days I spent some time training in Selby Booking office. The office had a large range of Edmundson type pre-printed card tickets, and failing that we could write out a paper ticket to anywhere.
However I reckon that 90+% of the tickets sold were day returns either to Leeds or York. For these we had a simple machine which had continuous rolls of pre-printed tickets (ie Adult day return to Leeds, Adult day return to York, and the child equivalents). I forget the name of the machine but it allowed very quick ticket issuing.
Fast forward to 2023 and watching people at my local station I reckon 90%+ just want returns to Leeds in this case either peak or offpeak, with or without a railcard.
The current Northern machines are impressive in that they seem to be able to do almost anything that a staffed ticket office can do. But they're too complicated for the occasional user who doesn't want/need
anything more than a simple machine with 3 or 4 buttons needing to be pressed.
TVMs are getting more complex for a variety of reasons; it's a big topic which has cropped up in other threads. The brief summary of the principle reason is that they want customers to choose an itinerary first and then offer tickets.
That suits Northern just fine; they are bankrolled by taxpayers. Customers appear to be seen by train companies as an inconvenience to the running of the service, and as potential criminals, rather than customers in the sense that the service sector would see customers. It's a completely different relationship, and one that is increasingly hostile.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
I think everyone here knows what the legal situation is - that doesn't change the fact that the legal situation is unreasonable and something needs to change!
Who is going to make TOCs like Northern change? There is no organisation that would both want to do this and have any sort of power whatsoever. Indeed it suits the Government if customers are treated this way, so the Government are very happy with the current situation.
I've had more issues travelling on e-tickets than I have traditional paper tickets.. being logged off the app constantly, tickets not loading correctly, phone dying and no charging facilities being available etc.
I don't have access to a printer, the same as many other people in the country, how do you propose I simply print off the ticket?
e-tickets are good for some people, but not great for everyone. Paper tickets purchased from a ticket office work perfectly fine and accept a range of payment forms too, not just card.
The issues around queueing to buy a paper ticket imply that there aren't enough facilities at the stations to buy the tickets, we need more, not less (which is what would happen with your proposition that we all move to e-tickets)..!
E-tickets do not require tickets to be loaded in an app. WHat you are describing here is an M-ticket which is an awful, outdated format and in the process of being phased out.
E-tickets do not require tickets to be loaded in an app. WHat you are describing here is an M-ticket which is an awful, outdated format and in the process of being phased out.
Nope, on the Northern app (at least of my phone) e-tickets often fail to load/show correctly. I'll go to open the ticket for the guard/ticket barriers and the page will get stuck after pressing view ticket and it'll either just change the box I've just pressed so it goes grey (like it's thinking about it but doesn't do anything further than that) or it'll say there's been an issue loading it. They've all been activated so it shouldn't be a WiFi issue, just a poorly designed app issue.
RailUK was launched on 6th June 2005 - so we've hit 20 years being the UK's most popular railway community! Read more and celebrate this milestone with us in this thread!
