Northern Rail Huddersfield - Manchester Service : Something has to be done.

[Prodigy]

Each month my dad has a list of complaints about the Northern Rail service which runs between Huddersfield and Manchester...he travels to work from Mossley station using this service almost each day, and I sometimes think that he is being a bit to over the top as it is understandable with some slight problems during peak times. However after using the service on a few occasions this month I have really become to detest the service and think changes need to be made. I mean come on I use the service rarely and even I notice problems and really why should we use trains like we're being told to do if the service is sub par? Here's what I think needs looking at and improving/updated

1)LATNESS- Yes, I get it some lateness is understandable especially at peak times. But really there's no excuse for a train being late at off-peak times by more than a minute or two, yet it is. I mean I used the service about seven times this past month in total and only once it was on time. Now I think the main reason for this lateness is because First Control the timetable on the lines they share with Northern, and any time First is late, Northern is late, which is stupid. Northern should have priority simply because the trains are generally for commuters added to the fact that First can make up with trains that could probably treble the speed of Northerns. We don't want to be waiting around for 10 extra minutes with no explanation, lateness I'm sure doesn't affect the train company who can always say that they were within the designated late limit, but for those with connections to make, jobs to get to etc, these lates can be costly.

2)MORE CARRIAGES- 2 Carriages on a peak service back from Manchester to Huddersfield in the evening is nothing short of a joke. Northern are quick to come up with the excuse that they need the trains to be split to compensate for added peak services....but wait, they manage four in the evening....but still is that really enough? Many times passengers have been left behind in Ashton Under Lyne on the morning peak services due to over-cramping of the trains that has already occured, which quite frankly is stupid....not to mention that train cramping is extremely dangerous so why it is happening in the first place is beyond me, surely these conducters are breaking the law by letting so many people on the trains, one day these pacer trains will cave under pressure and an accident will happen, so just add more carriages, it's not hard and will save a lot of health risks being broken and it will make passengers comfortable. And for the argument of some platforms being to small, yes maybe a problem, but surely people can walk down the trains, or heck the train can fill up all the carriages on the platform then edge forward....(on another note, Northern often do not open the back two carriages at Mossley, causing much over crowding on the front two ones, oh, not to mention they don't allow you to walk into other carriages). Oh, also I have to commend the trains that serve London, never seen less than 6 carriages on these.

3) Get rid of those god damn pacer trains! - I really am amazed how Northern have gotten away with using these trains for so long, and actually still believed in using them, when so many other companies have gotten rid of them, mostly selling them to Northern no doubt. These trains are not safe, and like I have said before they're a disaster waiting to happen. They actually do feel like a tin can, packing in the sardines. They are rocky, and rusty. This is where I feel what could be a nice relaxing journey on a good route is let down, by an awful uncomfortable machine, surely an update to something more modern is in order, seeing as we are in 2011 not 1985.

4) More frequent trains? - This is my final point. Really I think if this was added the service would become ten times better already. Trains every twenty minutes meaning four an hour would definitely compensate for late trains and even out the use of passengers.


Well that's what I think needs doing. I know some of you may agree or disagree which is why I am posting it on this forum. I really think Northern need a kick up the backside as I hate using this service whether it's for a fun journey or to work/shop. I wish First ran this service again.

 

[Anvil1984]

Each month my dad has a list of complaints about the Northern Rail service which runs between Huddersfield and Manchester...he travels to work from Mossley station using this service almost each day, and I sometimes think that he is being a bit to over the top as it is understandable with some slight problems during peak times. However after using the service on a few occasions this month I have really become to detest the service and think changes need to be made. I mean come on I use the service rarely and even I notice problems and really why should we use trains like we're being told to do if the service is sub par? Here's what I think needs looking at and improving/updated

1)LATNESS- Yes, I get it some lateness is understandable especially at peak times. But really there's no excuse for a train being late at off-peak times by more than a minute or two, yet it is. I mean I used the service about seven times this past month in total and only once it was on time. Now I think the main reason for this lateness is because First Control the timetable on the lines they share with Northern, and any time First is late, Northern is late, which is stupid. Northern should have priority simply because the trains are generally for commuters added to the fact that First can make up with trains that could probably treble the speed of Northerns. We don't want to be waiting around for 10 extra minutes with no explanation, lateness I'm sure doesn't affect the train company who can always say that they were within the designated late limit, but for those with connections to make, jobs to get to etc, these lates can be costly.

2)MORE CARRIAGES- 2 Carriages on a peak service back from Manchester to Huddersfield in the evening is nothing short of a joke. Northern are quick to come up with the excuse that they need the trains to be split to compensate for added peak services....but wait, they manage four in the evening....but still is that really enough? Many times passengers have been left behind in Ashton Under Lyne on the morning peak services due to over-cramping of the trains that has already occured, which quite frankly is stupid....not to mention that train cramping is extremely dangerous so why it is happening in the first place is beyond me, surely these conducters are breaking the law by letting so many people on the trains, one day these pacer trains will cave under pressure and an accident will happen, so just add more carriages, it's not hard and will save a lot of health risks being broken and it will make passengers comfortable. And for the argument of some platforms being to small, yes maybe a problem, but surely people can walk down the trains, or heck the train can fill up all the carriages on the platform then edge forward....(on another note, Northern often do not open the back two carriages at Mossley, causing much over crowding on the front two ones, oh, not to mention they don't allow you to walk into other carriages). Oh, also I have to commend the trains that serve London, never seen less than 6 carriages on these.

3) Get rid of those god damn pacer trains! - I really am amazed how Northern have gotten away with using these trains for so long, and actually still believed in using them, when so many other companies have gotten rid of them, mostly selling them to Northern no doubt. These trains are not safe, and like I have said before they're a disaster waiting to happen. They actually do feel like a tin can, packing in the sardines. They are rocky, and rusty. This is where I feel what could be a nice relaxing journey on a good route is let down, by an awful uncomfortable machine, surely an update to something more modern is in order, seeing as we are in 2011 not 1985.

4) More frequent trains? - This is my final point. Really I think if this was added the service would become ten times better already. Trains every twenty minutes meaning four an hour would definitely compensate for late trains and even out the use of passengers.


Well that's what I think needs doing. I know some of you may agree or disagree which is why I am posting it on this forum. I really think Northern need a kick up the backside as I hate using this service whether it's for a fun journey or to work/shop. I wish First ran this service again.

As with most Anti-Northern rants, I agree with it but its beyond the control of Northern, they simply lease trains and a lot of operators are in the same boat. Northern get less priority Huddersfield - Stalybridge simply a) they carry less passengers and b) take more time between the two points, if you put the local in front that delays an express which will delay another express, unless they open up the old tunnels at Standege then this is always going to happen. Northern have no more spare units, if you look at Newton Heath in the peaks you will see there is nothing there except the ones that need maintaining, unless you want to have a broken train going nowhere I fail to see what you wish Northern to do about this.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

As with most Anti-Northern rants, I agree with it but its beyond the control of Northern, they simply lease trains and a lot of operators are in the same boat. Northern get less priority Huddersfield - Stalybridge simply a) they carry less passengers and b) take more time between the two points, if you put the local in front that delays an express which will delay another express, unless they open up the old tunnels at Standege then this is always going to happen. Northern have no more spare units, if you look at Newton Heath in the peaks you will see there is nothing there except the ones that need maintaining, unless you want to have a broken train going nowhere I fail to see what you wish Northern to do about this.

But his posting was extremely well detailed for a new young forum member, who was reflecting the fraustrations felt by his father and it is nice to see Mossley station receive a mention on the forum.

It was obviously posted "from the heart"....and he shares the same opinion of the Class 142 pacers that I do, so he must have good sense.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

It was obviously posted "from the heart"....and he shares the same opinion of the Class 142 pacers that I do, so he must have good sense.

Or has no idea just how useful they actually are...

I mean, there's tonnes of other trains lying around, why not just use them...? :roll:

 

[Lampshade]

The Huddersfield line has virtually no more capacity for more stopping services, it's barely managing at the moment.

 

[Prodigy]

If I want a rickety ride on a cramped vehicle I will use a bus, I don't want a bus on track hence my hate for these 142 pacers. I'm 18 btw, so not too young, but a rookie when it comes to interest in trains.

 

[Anvil1984]

It was detailed I will give him that, but ill-informed. Its the first thing people not "in the know" go on about. "Why don't they buy more trains, the trains they own are rubbish". Quite simply you have to use the hand you are dealt, which in Northerns case is a poor hand and full of pacers, however without them you are IIRC about 80 - 90 (in DfT speak 165 - 190 vehicles) units down which need to be replaced

You cant run 4 local trains an hour because there simply isnt room on the network once you have factored in the TPE services as well and adding stops to those is probably not a good option as they are well loaded throughout the day. If there is room for an additional service then run it. But yet again Northern dont set this, its down to DfT.

As I say I can understand the frustration, I work heavily crowded services into Vic with some other members on here, but until the DfT invest or allow the TOCs to invest we wont see it.

 

[JohnCarlson]

If I had the money I would four track as much of the direct Leeds Manchester line as possible. Electrify the line and use tram trains that can get of the rail tracks at Piccadilly and run through Manchester city centre.

Its amazing how what must be a very busy route if you include TPE seems to have no strategy for growth of capacity and speed and replacement of outdated rolling stock.

John

 

[hairyhandedfool]

The problem with getting more stock is two fold.

1) There isn't much spare stock to use just now. London Midland will soon have it's Class 172s and the 150s will move on, mostly, it seems, to Northern, but until then there is little they can actually get.

2) Even if there is trains to get hold of, they would have to agree any new deal for trains with the government, or more specifically, DfT.

The common belief that the TOCs can get the trains they need, but don't, is false.

 

[Anvil1984]

As for the Tram-Trains theres not many that you could realistically convert out of Piccadilly Station, if only there was a nearby disused station across the road that could take some services from the south end of the station

 

[Prodigy]

One thing that I actually think will help is when the MetroLink comes to Ashton Under Lyne. A lot of passengers from Ashton will switch to using that service, and others may change, which I could see improving things a lot.

 

[175001]

I work the line often, not my fave by far

1. Our paths are at the mercy of TPE. Any delay on the Lime St, knocks on to us. Either we leave late due to us running behind it, or we get sent at xx.30 and then wait in the Up loop at Marsden to Huddersfield SB's content. Northern will NEVER have priority over TPE and that's a fact sadly.

2. You're accusing me of breaking the law?! Thanks!! I've lost many battles in trying to explain why we can't get more carriages on the HUD's. A) There is a restriction on 4 car trains at Mossley, Marsden and Slaithwaite (GMPTE and WYPTE should lengthen the platforms) and b) Nothern just don't have the stock!

3. Again, not Northern's fault, were lumbered by them. But I agree that pacers are NOT suitable for the HUD's. Should be a 150.

4. Again there's no paths on the line. It's so crowded with TPE's that out services have to be fitted Inbetween TPE's

I'm sorry you're not happy, neither am I, and I've got to work these trains nearly everyday! But it's not wholly Norherns fault.

 

[Prodigy]

I work the line often, not my fave by far

1. Our paths are at the mercy of TPE. Any delay on the Lime St, knocks on to us. Either we leave late due to us running behind it, or we get sent at xx.30 and then wait in the Up loop at Marsden to Huddersfield SB's content. Northern will NEVER have priority over TPE and that's a fact sadly.

2. You're accusing me of breaking the law?! Thanks!! I've lost many battles in trying to explain why we can't get more carriages on the HUD's. A) There is a restriction on 4 car trains at Mossley, Marsden and Slaithwaite (GMPTE and WYPTE should lengthen the platforms) and b) Nothern just don't have the stock!

3. Again, not Northern's fault, were lumbered by them. But I agree that pacers are NOT suitable for the HUD's. Should be a 150.

4. Again there's no paths on the line. It's so crowded with TPE's that out services have to be fitted Inbetween TPE's

I'm sorry you're not happy, neither am I, and I've got to work these trains nearly everyday! But it's not wholly Norherns fault.

I'm not blaming the staff who work the route

 

[tbtc]

I wish First ran this service again

Out of interest, what did First do differently/ what could they do better?

Given that there's no spare stock, no spare paths and the Northern service is at the mercy of the long-distance TPE services (with few places to overtake), I'm not sure what First could do (other than paint the trains a different shade of blue)?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm not blaming the staff who work the route

Looked like you were

surely these conducters are breaking the law by letting so many people on the trains

 

[YorkshireBear]

Since first ran the route passenger numbers in leeds and manchester have gone up by a hell of a lot (if someone knows the figure please put it down) so alowing first to run it now will do absolutely nothing unless the government gives them the freedom to buy stock in new a franchise. Im sure im not alone in saying northern have done fantastically with the hand they were given and i dont think anyone could do it much better.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Prodigy: what qualifies you to decide if a train is safe?

 

[strange6]

Class 142's get a lot of undeserved stick in my opinion. They are safe or else they wouldn't be allowed on the network. The only time I don't like them is during a cold snap when they literally freeze you to near death at speed. Otherwise, I prefer them to a 150 anyday.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

They may be safe on the surface, but I wouldn't want to be on one in a derailment/minor crash...

 

[JohnCarlson]

Since first ran the route passenger numbers in leeds and manchester have gone up by a hell of a lot (if someone knows the figure please put it down) so alowing first to run it now will do absolutely nothing unless the government gives them the freedom to buy stock in new a franchise. Im sure im not alone in saying northern have done fantastically with the hand they were given and i dont think anyone could do it much better.

A quick google search suggests that Northern's passenger numbers are up by about 36 percent since 2004 and there is a further projected increase of 70 percent by 2029.

If the leeds Manchester corridor was modernized with better faster journeys demand would go higher.

As you say fiddling round with franchisee holders and swapping old stock for slightly less old stock doesn't really address the issue. Wholesale modernization/rebuilding is needed.

And yes I think Northern do a good job with what they have got.

John

 

[driver9000]

2)MORE CARRIAGES- Where do these trains magically come from when there is no suitable stock in storage for Northern to bring in on lease without robbing from other routes? Resources are finite with around 290 units to cover the entire Northern operation (including those stopped for maintenance). I believe the issue with rear sets being locked out of use is short platforms at some of the stations along that line - I'm not familiar with the area though, but short platforms are a Network Rail issue.

3) Get rid of those god damn pacer trains! - The 142s have stuck to their original operating areas pretty much since introduction - they've been a feature of Manchester since 1986, the only operators to have run them are those who have held franchises in the former BR Pacer areas (FNW, ATW, ATN etc). The Northern 142s running today are the same sets BR ran in the area give or take a few ATN interlopers. Where will their replacements come from? With less than 2 years to go on the Northern franchise this is unlikely to happen until the new franchise begins in 2013. If a new order for trains was placed tomorrow it would be about 2 years before they would be in service - and that is if the build runs on time (look at LMs delays in getting 172s delivered). If Northern were to withdraw all Pacers tonight because of their supposed dangerous state then an awful lot of passengers are walking to work tomorrow morning...which would be even less popular than a 142! Yes the 142s are old and tired but they form the back bone of Northern services in the North West, they might not be the most salubrious trains in the world but they'd be missed if they vanished over night as the NW services simply couldn't operate without them. Northern got lumbered with it's fleet when the franchise was let as a no growth franchise (meaning the DfT didn't predict a rise in passenger numbers or give an provision for new or additional trains - the additional vehicles Northern has got were fought hard for.)

4) More frequent trains? I make a 20 minute service 3 trains an hour (00, 20, 40) unless I'm missing a service. Does the line have pathing for more trains than the current service?


Northern do a good job with the fleet it has, which is one of the oldest and hardest working fleets in the country. We know the trains are getting a bit long in the tooth now but until 'newer' or bigger trains are released to be cascaded in from London Midland or whoever else gets new trains before the Pacers can be retired. Whoever takes the franchise on after Northern finishes in 2013 will take on the fleet and we will still have them running around albeit painted in a different colour being worked by the same staff albeit wearing new uniforms. As for First running the service again well, they ran the very same 142s on the very same routes - just with big gold stars on them. Personally I can see 142s being a feature of the NW until at least 2016 when electrification is completed which will hopefully allow the newly electrified services to release 15x DMUs off those services onto 14x operated services enabling them to be withdrawn.

 

[Nym]

But even then, elecrtification will only release 20 diagrams worth of units, about 25 units. Won't even make any in roads into the pacer fleet and it would be enough to double up more diagrams around Manchester and Leeds, electrification, won't displace enough pacers. Unless theres an extremely agressive programme of electrification. For Northern it would mean releasing 100 units, about 80 diagrams. (Not including more diesel units for growth)

Valley Lines: Covers pacer removal from Wales and the South West
East Manchester Lines: 20 units
CLC Route: 5 units
Bolton - Lostock: 5 units
Wigan via Atherton: 5 units

Calder Valley (Victoria - Rochdale - Bradford - Leeds) 6 - 8 units

Diggle Route, Leeds - York & Hull, Northallerton - Middlesbrough & Newcastle via Sunderland. A lot of 185s...

About 20 units round Leeds and 8 or 10 round Tyneside.

Wiring the Midland Mainline would go some way to helping, but that would be more for HST replacment on the Great Western (not needing stupid Bi Mode IEPs)

Looking outside of Northern:

GOBLIN: All of LOROL's 172s
Southern Reigon Infill: All of southerns 171s.

The basic upshot being that if they want to be getting rid of pacers, they need to do a lot of electrification, or replace them like for like with new stock. Or a combination of the two. Such as using the Valley Lines electrification to get rid of SW and Wales Pacers, Northern will just need new diesels...

 

[driver9000]

Northern have 67 142s on it's books and 14(?) 144s. I was basing my guess on the electrics and cascaded Sprinters from other operators who are to receive new units. Fingers crossed that the next franchise covers an order for new DMUs (possibly 172s?) as 14x must be withdrawn by 2019 anyway.

 

[Nym]

Ordering 250 carrages in the form of 100 units for Northern wouldn't be beyond stupid. But if TP electrification is going to be a while, then some more units for TPE would also be sensible. 330 carrages in total, 100 units for northern and 20 units for TPE.

Replacing pacers like for like and having some spare kicking about to get a nice refurb done on the 15x fleet.

 

[WestCoast]

Replacing pacers like for like and having some spare kicking about to get a nice refurb done on the 15x fleet.

Northern's 15x fleet (possibly barring the original seated 158s) would be much nicer if they had a decent interior refresh, similar to what FGW have done. The ex-FNW 150s are not nice at all.

 

[Anvil1984]

Theres actually 23 class 144s, 13 x 2 car and 10 x 3 car.

Every DMU in the Northern fleet will have to be refurbed / refreshed in the new franchise just to meet DDA. I would be nice to think that a big chunk will be new stock but a lot will probably come from GWML electrification (displaced 143s which'll need replaced again by 2019 anyway) and possibly if the Scots go ahead with their wiring scheme

 

[driver9000]

Theres actually 23 class 144s, 13 x 2 car and 10 x 3 car.

Thanks. My mistake.

 

[strange6]

Northern's 15x fleet (possibly barring the original seated 158s) would be much nicer if they had a decent interior refresh, similar to what FGW have done. The ex-FNW 150s are not nice at all.

I agree with that. been on a few today and they still have the old BR seating arrangements. Not the best use of space to say the least.

 

[Anvil1984]

I agree with that. been on a few today and they still have the old BR seating arrangements. Not the best use of space to say the least.

The old ATN ones are the ones with the old seating arrangements, the ex FNW units are the ones with the slightly new seats with more seats in bays with the pinky handle on the top if you know what I mean. They all need refurbed though

 

[Nym]

Northern's 15x fleet (possibly barring the original seated 158s) would be much nicer if they had a decent interior refresh, similar to what FGW have done. The ex-FNW 150s are not nice at all.

Is all they need, but for the amount of time one would be out of service to give the interior a deep clean and repaint, you may aswell overhaul the running gear at the same time. 150s have a good 15 years left in them yet, but they need to have a damn good clean and tuneup.

Also, if this major refurb was publisised and accompanied by the new TOC's livery it would be a major boost for the brand image of the franchise, and get more passengers on the trains.

Joe public doesn't really care how old the train is, if it has a nice clean interior, comfy seats, clean exterior, the doors work and fit properly, and they get there on time.

If I where refurbing the 150s, I'd be ripping out all of the interior, and I mean all of it, refurbishing all of it, renewing rust protection. Put in new compitite flooring (posh vinal), thin carpets on the lower walls (as is now), full repaint with polymer based paint (scrub and steam cleanable), renew the door mechinism, possibly change it to electric operaton, new seals all round. And a full overhaul of all running gear.

Seating wise, I'm undecided, refurbishing the old ones would be OK, but new 2+2, yes, 2+2 seating would be tempting to put in, shed loads more grab rails all round. And fit ERTMS while we're at it.

 

[strange6]

You only need to look at the first gen bubble cars to realise that! magnificent machines and worth a trip down south to sample one!