Northern Rail "What if?" electrification 1990s

[adrock1976]

Rather than cluttering up existing threads, I have been thinking about the various routes planned for electrification across the North of England.

As British Rail electrified part of the Midland Railway metals north of Leeds and Bradford Forster Square to Skipton and Ilkley (with a fleet of new trains), this got me thinking about a "what if they were allowed to continue with small to medium size schemes", bearing in mind that the Class 142 Pacers were approaching 2 thirds of their intended operational lifespan (built in 1985, and as it was based on bus technology, buses normally are designed to have a 15 year operational lifespan, therefore would have been withdrawn in 2000 on that basis).

I would have thought about the next project after Ilkley and Skipton to then switch to the Midland Railway metals around Manchester to wire both the Bredbury and Hyde Central routes (Manchester Piccadilly to Ashburys and Guide Bridge were already wired as part of the Great Central Railway route to Glossop and Hadfield) to Chinley (also the connecting link from Hazel Grove), continuing to Sheffield and northwards via Rotherham Central and Masborough to Doncaster and Fitzwilliam. 2 teams could start at both ends and meet in the middle. I would also include the Barnsley and Wakefield Kirkgate route in as well.

An alternative I have in mind would be to perhaps finish Preston to Blackpool, the Liverpool & Manchester Railway, and to concentrate on the Lancashire & Yorkshire Railway routes. Preston and Manchester Victoria to Leeds (all three routes via Bradford Interchange, the shared section via Dewsbury with the London & NWR route), and the original route via Wakefield Kirkgate. Not forgetting the branch to Colne as well.

With a fleet of new electric trains to complement the electrified routes, this would partially allow the Sprinter fleet to be gradually cascaded to the Pacer routes, meaning that the Class 142s could be withdrawn by 2000.

The above are only a couple of ideas based on the 1990s service pattern at the time, and although I have thought of a couple more possibilities, I do not want to make it a rather lengthy opening post.

Any thoughts to how a follow on from the Ilkley and Skipton electrification project across the North of England would have been, had privatisation not got in the way?

 

[northwichcat]

I'll add a what if. What if Altrincham-Chester had been electrified? It was reportedly looked at as a 70s scheme but dismissed as they didn't have enough money for it. If that had been done Metrolink phase 1 may not have happened or looked very different, while 1980s DMUs wouldn't have been needed for the Mid-Cheshire line.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

It may seem crazy but Preston- Colne.

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

Well, seeing as we're dreaming here, what about electrifying the route to Hull?

 

[J-2739]

What if the Hallam line was electrified, 25kv 50hz? It can be busy with the pacers.

Could it ever be electrified?

 

[scrapy]

Electrification of the Hope Valley route was considered however the locals were strongly against overhead wires through the national park wanting 3rd rail instead.

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

Electrification of the Hope Valley route was considered however the locals were strongly against overhead wires through the national park wanting 3rd rail instead.

Well that would solve the issue now of where to send the 442s... Maybe the leasing company knows something we don't

 

[class 9]

Rather than cluttering up existing threads, I have been thinking about the various routes planned for electrification across the North of England.

As British Rail electrified part of the Midland Railway metals north of Leeds and Bradford Forster Square to Skipton and Ilkley (with a fleet of new trains), this got me thinking about a "what if they were allowed to continue with small to medium size schemes", bearing in mind that the Class 142 Pacers were approaching 2 thirds of their intended operational lifespan (built in 1985, and as it was based on bus technology, buses normally are designed to have a 15 year operational lifespan, therefore would have been withdrawn in 2000 on that basis).

I would have thought about the next project after Ilkley and Skipton to then switch to the Midland Railway metals around Manchester to wire both the Bredbury and Hyde Central routes (Manchester Piccadilly to Ashburys and Guide Bridge were already wired as part of the Great Central Railway route to Glossop and Hadfield) to Chinley (also the connecting link from Hazel Grove), continuing to Sheffield and northwards via Rotherham Central and Masborough to Doncaster and Fitzwilliam. 2 teams could start at both ends and meet in the middle. I would also include the Barnsley and Wakefield Kirkgate route in as well.

An alternative I have in mind would be to perhaps finish Preston to Blackpool, the Liverpool & Manchester Railway, and to concentrate on the Lancashire & Yorkshire Railway routes. Preston and Manchester Victoria to Leeds (all three routes via Bradford Interchange, the shared section via Dewsbury with the London & NWR route), and the original route via Wakefield Kirkgate. Not forgetting the branch to Colne as well.

With a fleet of new electric trains to complement the electrified routes, this would partially allow the Sprinter fleet to be gradually cascaded to the Pacer routes, meaning that the Class 142s could be withdrawn by 2000.

The above are only a couple of ideas based on the 1990s service pattern at the time, and although I have thought of a couple more possibilities, I do not want to make it a rather lengthy opening post.

Any thoughts to how a follow on from the Ilkley and Skipton electrification project across the North of England would have been, had privatisation not got in the way?

BR electrified Ilkley/Skipton etc but the fleet of new trains came a few years later, class 308 cascaded from London were used first.

 

[IanXC]

My view is that BR would have continued with similar schemes to those they perused on the West Coast. So routes like Leeds to York and Hambelton Junction, and Leeds via Wakefield Kirkgate to Hare Park Junction and to Sheffield via Barnsley.

Both would enable local services to switch to electric traction, and also for the mainline service to be more resilient.

 

[adrock1976]

BR electrified Ilkley/Skipton etc but the fleet of new trains came a few years later, class 308 cascaded from London were used first.

I was aware of that, even though I did not initially make it clear in the opening post.

That was similar to when the Cross City Line in the West Midlands was electrified in the early 1990s. I remember some Class 308s (I think) that came from the London, Tilbury, & Southend Railway that had the Network SouthEast branding which were used until the faults with the Class 323s were rectified.

 

[J-2739]

My view is that BR would have continued with similar schemes to those they perused on the West Coast. So routes like Leeds to York and Hambelton Junction, and Leeds via Wakefield Kirkgate to Hare Park Junction and to Sheffield via Barnsley.

Both would enable local services to switch to electric traction, and also for the mainline service to be more resilient.

I'm glad someone's not forgotten the Hallam line

(AKA, the dirty stepchild of the MML)

 

[markem41]

I think someone would have looked at all the electrified lines, added up the cost and then demanded a converted electric Pacer to serve the north for 50 years.

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

I think someone would have looked at all the electrified lines, added up the cost and then demanded a converted electric Pacer to serve the north for 50 years.

Yeah... That would be me!!!

I have done some number crunching and an electro-pacer will work

 

[Mollman]

Re West Yorkshire electrics, I seem to remember there was meant to be 323s ordered for the triangle but cancelled due to privatisation.
Similarly Manchester - Preston was a favorite. I'm still miffed at why the CLC route has not been put up for electrification.

 

[superkev]

I was suprised when the stanedge route took precedence over the Calder Valley. Electric trains wuth there faster acceleration come into there own where there are lots of start stops.
K

 

[Bletchleyite]

Electrification of the Hope Valley route was considered however the locals were strongly against overhead wires through the national park wanting 3rd rail instead.

I note that in the UK we mostly only use ugly, unpainted I-beam OHLE supports. The Germans use latticework supports and paint them green, which means they are less visible in such settings. Or could tram-style, more ornate supports be used?

There are ways and means, IOW...

 

[gordonthemoron]

It may seem crazy but Preston- Colne.

And extend Colne to Skipton, et voila electric services from Leeds to Preston

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Electrification around 1990 was dominated by the ECML and the Channel Tunnel routes (West London, Tonbridge-Redhill, Dollonds Moor), and it then ran out of momentum with oncoming privatisation where TOCs lost interest and Railtrack were hostile.
The only schemes to get through were Paddington-Heathrow (driven by BAA), NLL (driven by NOL Eurostar), Leeds suburban (a by-product of ECML wiring) and Birmingham Cross-City.
Crewe-Kidsgrove was done for WCRM project reasons, not commercial.
It's interesting that the WLL/NLL wiring was strategically for Eurostar services which either had a short life or no life at all, but are now doing sterling work for LO and SN local services.
Scotland (well, Glasgow) did rather well during this period with the extension of OHL in several directions.

The choice of the Chat Moss route between Liverpool and Manchester in 2009 has a political air about it, as the CLC route was (and still is) the busier.
I suspect Andrew Adonis wanted a strategic scheme which could lead to a network (eg the Bolton and TP routes), whereas the CLC route was localised and had little network value.
Chat Moss gave you a Manchester-WCML route and started the Lancs triangle, and had some freight value (unrealised as yet) and diversion value.
The Calder Valley suffers from the same issues, but like the CLC I'm sure its time will come.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Re West Yorkshire electrics, I seem to remember there was meant to be 323s ordered for the triangle but cancelled due to privatisation.
Similarly Manchester - Preston was a favorite. I'm still miffed at why the CLC route has not been put up for electrification.

That's correct I think- 323s would've been ideal for the Aire/Wharfe lines and might have saved Hunslet from closing too. With regard to Manchester to Liverpool, Chat Moss in recent years was more dedicated to local services so electrifying that freed up more DMUs than the CLC would. Of course the TPE services are now moving over to the Moss, which rather defeats the object of prioritising that route at least until the rest of Manchester to York is wired.

I was suprised when the stanedge route took precedence over the Calder Valley. Electric trains wuth there faster acceleration come into there own where there are lots of start stops.
K

Those advantages would also apply to Standedge locals, were they not being withdrawn to allow 6 short tph! :roll:

 

[tbtc]

The problem with a few of these (laudable) ambitions is that they fail to take service patterns into account. For example, whilst the line through Warrington Central is certainly busy, electrifying it wouldn’t help half of the services on it (Liverpool to Norwich and Liverpool to Scarborough – albeit the Transpennine service didn’t necessarily run to Scarborough in the ‘90s).

So, using the Airedale/ Wharfdale lines as a template (nothing very long, mainly self contained services, little major disruption at busy stations – e.g. it’d be great to wire the Barnsley line but you’d inconvenience all passengers on the Meadowhall – Sheffield line for a long period even though it wouldn’t benefit most passengers who use Sheffield station), I’d suggest:

Manchester Piccadilly to New Mills (all the “heavy lifting” had already been done at the Manchester end, there was only the occasional Hope Valley services to remain DMU, it’d tie in to the already electrified Glossop services).

Leeds – Harrogate – York (which was wired at both ends already, pretty self contained services, Harrogate ought to justify something bigger and better than the Pacers of the day).

Metrocentre - Sunderland (was up to four trains an hour in the '90s, before the TW Metro extension to Wearside), plus the spur at Morpeth to allow a significant number of local trains around Newcastle to be EMU operated.

Perhaps if we’d seen this kind of rolling electrification we’d currently have EMUs at Oldham rather than trams.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Perhaps if we’d seen this kind of rolling electrification we’d currently have EMUs at Oldham rather than trams.

As in Germany heavy-rail S-Bahn could have had a role in a unified co-ordinated transport system, and would have been my preference.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Chat moss was done first as the scope fore more electric services esp onto the WCML was greater than cheshire lines. Where chat moss falls down is the single feed junction north of Newton where the WCML diverges its slows into Newton LW station. The slow speeds as a result seems agonising compared to the rest of the route as does the approaches to Man Vicc. The crazy thing here they strung up the knitting and are now remoddeling to improve the line speed thru salford C. Might have saved a few quid if they did that first but then again the pressure to get the 319s in service was probably political and jas probably encouraged the rest of the north west triangle to bear fruit. Even so, as with leeds-york there isnt really all that much to gain unless other routes are tied in which should include blackpool (delayed) barrow, the other wigan station and on to southport all of which would massively increase electric traction possibilities and strengthen the justification.


As for Leeds-York there was little benefit to gain from electrifying that stretch which was why it was never done. Yes the benefits of the ECML diversion speaks for itself, but at the time with no RR services able to benefit from switching power (I.e TPE and BPN-SCA) or ICXC services there was never a strong enough case. Even wiring Leeds to Neville Hill was only sanctioned as part of airedale electrification and EC services were originally planned to be dragged from the station to the depot. The strength of that stretch now lies with wiring TPE but even that leaves gaps to middlesbrough scarborough and beyond selby (which imho is ludicrous!)

Leeds harrogate york should have been done alongside the aire/wharfe valleys as with the routes to sheffield. A further push towards halifax might habe then addes weight to through wiring to blackpool and Man Vicc and increased Leeds-York benefits. Sheffield in itself would then add weight to MML electrification projects and potentially made XC all electric north of Birmingham.

Fortunately electrification is now back on the agenda

 

[Mollman]

As in Germany heavy-rail S-Bahn could have had a role in a unified co-ordinated transport system, and would have been my preference.

In hindsight a S-Bahn style system (based around the Picc-Vic tunnel ) would have been better for Manc regarding the Altrincham, Bury and Oldham Loop lines. It could have then been expanded to include Marple routes, Hadfield / Glossop and Atherton line giving a faster and more comfortable journey than on the tram.

 

[DarloRich]

My view is that BR would have continued with similar schemes to those they perused on the West Coast. So routes like Leeds to York and Hambelton Junction, and Leeds via Wakefield Kirkgate to Hare Park Junction and to Sheffield via Barnsley.

Both would enable local services to switch to electric traction, and also for the mainline service to be more resilient.

I agree and ( in the perfect world) would suggest a phased roll out of electrification works based on the commuter lines serving Leeds - Helped by a sensible PTE offering a supportive funding source & a government government prepared to invest in the north:

Leeds - Harrogate ( would Harrogate - York get done?)
Leeds - York
Leeds - Kirkgate - Westgate & Castleford/Knottingly

Cross "border" schemes would be difficult without SYPTE buy in. If that could be agreed then i would add the lines to Shefifled via Barnsley and via Moorthorpe & Swinton.

I would then suggest finishing everything off by filling in the gap via Mexbrough to Doncaster

I have omitted TPE and via Hebden Bridge as they are much bigger schemes to be funded nationally

 

[GRALISTAIR]

It may seem crazy but Preston- Colne.

If that had been done - then the rest of Calder Valley would have been a no-brainer in these times.

 

[adrock1976]

I've managed to catch up on the various and interesting replies that have been made so far.

If the team that electrified Leeds - Skipton and Ilkley were allowed to continue with smaller electrification projects in the North of England, perhaps maybe instead of discussing Class 142 Pacers being retired in 2020, might the conversation today have been how to replace the Class 150 Sprinters, as they were built in 1985-87?

 

[northwichcat]

If the team that electrified Leeds - Skipton and Ilkley were allowed to continue with smaller electrification projects in the North of England, perhaps maybe instead of discussing Class 142 Pacers being retired in 2020, might the conversation today have been how to replace the Class 150 Sprinters, as they were built in 1985-87?

Or would it?

A lot of new local/regional DMUs have been ordered since Leeds-Skipton was electrified - 170s, 172s, 175s and 185s. Would so many DMUs have been ordered if wiring work had continued?