Northern Transpennine service frequency

[mike57]

TPE have gone from 4 to 5 trains per hour between Leeds and Manchester, and there is no doubt in my mind the service is less reliable. When they increase it to 6 trains per hour it will no doubt get worse still.

Running more trains per hour must require more units, instead of making the timetable more fragile why havn't they just lengthened trains, and kept to the 4 per hour pattern. After all if you are turn up and go customer on the core Leeds Manchester route the the difference between 4 and 6 trains per hour is only another 5 mins max to wait.

Also why not some simple improvements to allow TPE trains to overtake stoppers, restore the Westbound through line at Dewsbury, Crossgates could have through lines, looks as if there used to be 4 tracks here, also Slaithwaite, and between Deighton and Mirfield. If these improvements were kept simple would they be prohibitivley expensive.

OK so they are small incremental improvements, but they would help to stop knock on effect from late running trains and allow a more robust timetable.

 

[charley_17/7]

TPE have gone from 4 to 5 trains per hour between Leeds and Manchester, and there is no doubt in my mind the service is less reliable. When they increase it to 6 trains per hour it will no doubt get worse still.

Running more trains per hour must require more units, instead of making the timetable more fragile why havn't they just lengthened trains, and kept to the 4 per hour pattern. After all if you are turn up and go customer on the core Leeds Manchester route the the difference between 4 and 6 trains per hour is only another 5 mins max to wait.

Also why not some simple improvements to allow TPE trains to overtake stoppers, restore the Westbound through line at Dewsbury, Crossgates could have through lines, looks as if there used to be 4 tracks here, also Slaithwaite, and between Deighton and Mirfield. If these improvements were kept simple would they be prohibitivley expensive.

OK so they are small incremental improvements, but they would help to stop knock on effect from late running trains and allow a more robust timetable.

When I worked at FTPE anything out of order in the Manchester - Leeds core had a knock-on effect without doubt, and that was when 4tph run tightly in between the local stoppers.

If portion working could be done at peak hours (there was a Liverpool - Newcastle/York and v.v. ISTR), then why not all day, especially given the loss of the 170s?

Run 2tph on the Liverpool - Newcastle axis, and 2tph Manchester Airport - York, dividing for Middlesborough/Scarborough, either of which could drop off a Hull portion en-route at Leeds. Now that 185s will run via Chat Moss, rather than CLC/Warrington Central route, you could UDB the rear set(s) as appropriate.

This would then enable the stopping services to remain as they should be, rather than shoehorning skip-stoppers, which IMO is a recipe for further trouble.

 

[55z]

The problem is with the Dept of Transport who insist on 6 trains per hour Leeds to Manchester without really thinking this through logically. Too many trains and not enough paths. The plan is between Huddersfield & Manchester TPEXp will take over all stopping services from ARN but will not be a true stopping service as they will skip stop i.e. Slaithwaite & Greenfield, Marsden & Mossley for example (not sure the skip stop stopping patterns) except ARN will run additional stopping trains in the peaks. First Group plan to run 5 coach units which will mean the stations will have to have the platforms lengthened or selective door opening in operation. This is all in the franchise spec. Dept of Transport would not allow First/Keolis order extra coaches(to make some 4 car units and to increase the number of 3 car units) so dont blame TPEXP but take the matter up with your MP and the wizzards of Whitehall.

 

[Senex]

The problem is with the Dept of Transport who insist on 6 trains per hour Leeds to Manchester without really thinking this through logically. Too many trains and not enough paths. The plan is between Huddersfield & Manchester TPEXp will take over all stopping services from ARN but will not be a true stopping service as they will skip stop i.e. Slaithwaite & Greenfield, Marsden & Mossley for example (not sure the skip stop stopping patterns) except ARN will run additional stopping trains in the peaks. First Group plan to run 5 coach units which will mean the stations will have to have the platforms lengthened or selective door opening in operation. This is all in the franchise spec. Dept of Transport would not allow First/Keolis order extra coaches(to make some 4 car units and to increase the number of 3 car units) so dont blame TPEXP but take the matter up with your MP and the wizzards of Whitehall.

Presumably no hope of getting a proper split between genuinely fast services and a proper local service until the route enhancements that we hear are to come with electrification are completed. We all know that one of the problems with the electrification was that NR simply proposed to wire up the existing railway and that DfT then saw that this would not be enough for future needs and insisted on a new infrastructure capacity survey, but as far as I have seen no-one has yet heard of the outcome of this. Presumably then a mish-mash service really pleasing no-one until the middle of the next decade (assuming that the elctrification date will slip).

 

[northwichcat]

TPE have gone from 4 to 5 trains per hour between Leeds and Manchester, and there is no doubt in my mind the service is less reliable. When they increase it to 6 trains per hour it will no doubt get worse still.

Running more trains per hour must require more units, instead of making the timetable more fragile why havn't they just lengthened trains, and kept to the 4 per hour pattern. After all if you are turn up and go customer on the core Leeds Manchester route the the difference between 4 and 6 trains per hour is only another 5 mins max to wait.

I think maybe you misunderstand what's going to happen.

Currently we have the following every hour:
Liverpool-Newcastle
Liverpool-Scarborough
Man Airport-York
Man Airport-Middlesbrough
Piccadilly-Hull
Victoria-Huddersfield
Huddersfield-Leeds

The changes will result in the below services every hour:
Man Airport-Middlesbrough*
Liverpool-Scarborough*
Man Airport-Newcastle*
Liverpool-Edinburgh*
Piccadilly-Leeds**
Piccadilly-Hull**

* 1 of these services will serve Dewsbury, the rest of them will only call at Huddersfield between Manchester and Leeds
** These will serve Stalybridge and Dewsbury plus some of the stops currently served by the Victoria-Huddersfield and Huddersfield-Leeds services.

So they'll be the same number of services but the all-stops services will be replaced by additional calls on the Hull service, plus a through Piccadilly-Leeds services opposed to services which start/terminate at Huddersfield.

 

[northwichcat]

i.e. Slaithwaite & Greenfield, Marsden & Mossley for example (not sure the skip stop stopping patterns)

I believe after consultation Network Rail declared the service which stops at Greenfield should also stop at Marsden and the other one should stop at Mossley and Slaithwaite.

First Group plan to run 5 coach units which will mean the stations will have to have the platforms lengthened or selective door opening in operation.

The 5 car bi-modes are only for the services via York with the 5 car electric being for the Scottish services via Preston. TPE will keep 29 x 185s which will be refurbished and used on the other North TPE services, plus all South TPE services.

 

[Ianigsy]

No doubt in my mind at all that full four-track layouts at Dewsbury and Cross Gates should be implemented at the same time as electrification. Practically every time I travel into Leeds from the west, the train ends up crawling from signal to signal after Batley. I've also been on enough York and Selby stoppers which have been held at Leeds to allow late-running TPE and XC trains (some of which hadn't even arrived at Leeds yet) to go first.

As regards the intermediate stations, I'd guess the majority of demand at Mossley and Greenfield is for Manchester, and for Huddersfield and Leeds at Marsden and Slaithwaite. Batley is a slightly odd one as there's probably demand in both directions and although I doubt many people at Morley want to go anywhere other than Leeds, rail can't compete on frequency or price with the bus.

 

[northwichcat]

and for Huddersfield and Leeds at Marsden and Slaithwaite.

I recall the consultation finding people living in Marsden and Slaithwaite weren't really that bothered about losing an hourly train to the next village when there is already a more frequent bus service while the idea of a direct Leeds service was very popular.

 

[clagmonster]

The changes will result in the below services every hour:
Liverpool-Newcastle*
Liverpool-Scarborough*
Man Airport-Newcastle*
Liverpool-Edinburgh*
Piccadilly-Leeds**
Piccadilly-Hull**

* 1 of these services will serve Dewsbury, the rest of them will only call at Huddersfield between Manchester and Leeds
** These will serve Stalybridge and Dewsbury plus some of the stops currently served by the Victoria-Huddersfield and Huddersfield-Leeds services.

So they'll be the same number of services but the all-stops services will be replaced by additional calls on the Hull service, plus a through Piccadilly-Leeds services opposed to services which start/terminate at Huddersfield.

Is Middlesbrough to be reduced to a York shuttle then whilst Newcastle goes from 2 to 3 TPE an hour. I'd missed that bit.

Thanks for clarifying the position with the stoppers, I was unaware of the stopping pattern and the position with the Hudders-Leeds stopper.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

With regard to the OP mentioning Dewsbury through lines and the formerly 4-track formation from Huddersfield to Diggle, track alignments are significant. For example at Dewsbury, the Eastbound through line has a straight alignment from the West through the station area, as does the single Westbound line. To create platform bypass lines in both directions would significantly reduce linespeeds for non-stop services as both directions would require a "zigzag" West of the station. Additionally the platform loop Eastbound is only used for overtaking at times of disruption due to the loop being pretty short. West of Huddersfield curves were eased when the line was reduced to 2-tracks, restoring 4 tracks throughout would probably result in extended journey times as well as expensive rebuilding of intermediate stations. Dynamic loops might be an option but the line is pretty curvy as it is so this wouldn't be easy.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Once upon a time it was 4 track all the way from Ravensthorpe to stalybridge, and again from guide bridge to piccadilly.....

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Once upon a time it was 4 track all the way from Ravensthorpe to stalybridge, and again from guide bridge to piccadilly.....

Technically it was 4-track from Leeds to Manchester, albeit two of the four ran via the Leeds New Line via Heckmondwike Central, and via the Micklehurst Loop line between Diggle and Stalybridge.

 

[darloscott]

Is Middlesbrough to be reduced to a York shuttle then whilst Newcastle goes from 2 to 3 TPE an hour. I'd missed that bit.

Thanks for clarifying the position with the stoppers, I was unaware of the stopping pattern and the position with the Hudders-Leeds stopper.

No there'll still be an hourly service to Middlesbrough (& Scarborough) - the service to Newcastle will go from one to two services per hour, albeit one of these will extend to Edinburgh

 

[TheWalrus]

I don't know the line at all but could some of the four tracking be reinstated for stopping services?

 

[northwichcat]

No there'll still be an hourly service to Middlesbrough (& Scarborough) - the service to Newcastle will go from one to two services per hour, albeit one of these will extend to Edinburgh

Is Middlesbrough to be reduced to a York shuttle then whilst Newcastle goes from 2 to 3 TPE an hour.

I put Man Airport-Newcastle in twice in my earlier post when one of them should have been Man Airport-Middlesbrough. I've corrected that now.

 

[Ianno87]

I don't know the line at all but could some of the four tracking be reinstated for stopping services?

I think the idea is that (ultimately) electrifying the route will speed up the stopping services significantly to fit in much better with fast services, negating the need for extensive four-tracking (which was originally really of most benefit to very slow moving goods trains when built)

 

[Senex]

I think the idea is that (ultimately) electrifying the route will speed up the stopping services significantly to fit in much better with fast services, negating the need for extensive four-tracking (which was originally really of most benefit to very slow moving goods trains when built)

I thought that was the view that had been overtaken by events. Certainly NR did think that once electrification was announced there was no need for the proposed programme of enhancements, but as I understood it this was doubted by both the operators and DfT, and DfT had a further study done which shewed that electrification on its own was nothing like enough to provide for the robust operation of the sort of train service envisaged for the near future. NR was then sent off to revise its plans, which is where we are now, still waiting for the announcement of what infrastructure changes are desirable.