I noticed that the last thread on what is possibly the worst long distance line in the country has closed. This is a rail route I would use, but it is simply too expensive for the poor service provided. I was wondering whether anyone on this site had any ideas how to go about improving things on this route, by which I mean actually improving it, rather than talking about improving it.
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Norwich-Liverpool Lime Street
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jamesontheroad
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Not wasting time talking about it on an enthusiasts' internet forum would probably be a first step...
MCR247
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Don't get me started on this :mad:
It scuppered my RDD planes on Sat because the 0758 Grantham - Liverpool (0552? from Norwich) was delayed by 30 minutes for some reason at Peterborough, so what EMT do, is they bring another 158 into Nottingham, and have that run the train to Liverpool, terminate the train from Norwich in Nottingham and make the people get the next one :mad:
That has happened to me twice now under EMT
It scuppered my RDD planes on Sat because the 0758 Grantham - Liverpool (0552? from Norwich) was delayed by 30 minutes for some reason at Peterborough, so what EMT do, is they bring another 158 into Nottingham, and have that run the train to Liverpool, terminate the train from Norwich in Nottingham and make the people get the next one :mad:
That has happened to me twice now under EMT
tbtc
Veteran Member
I appreciate that'll inconvenience some people, but doing this means they hit the slots in Sheffield/ Manchester/ Liverpool, and then have the unit in Liverpool in time to hit the slots coming back again. Tough call, but I think it suits the majority of passengers (which I appreciate is little consolation to people like yourself on the Grantham stretch)
MCR247
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Also, what annoyed me about it, as I have an iPhone and I was using the 3G to view the National Rail app. I checked at Grantham, and it says
0758 Liverpool Lime Street
28 minutes late
fine, when I pressed it is showed that they expected it to arrive NOT 26 minutes late, and cancelled from there on. And when I looked at Nottingham on the LDB it said the 0845 Liverpool (same train) is on-time. But the screens etc still said Liverpool. They only told us as we were approaching P1b that it terminates
0758 Liverpool Lime Street
28 minutes late
fine, when I pressed it is showed that they expected it to arrive NOT 26 minutes late, and cancelled from there on. And when I looked at Nottingham on the LDB it said the 0845 Liverpool (same train) is on-time. But the screens etc still said Liverpool. They only told us as we were approaching P1b that it terminates
I went to Liverpool from East Midlands Parkway for RDD on Saturday and had a great day out including a trip on the Mersey Ferry but I nearly didn't get there due to wrong information given to me at Chesterfield.
I caught the 0813 EMT York service from East Midlands Parkway [EMD] arriving in Chesterfield just before 9. When I looked at the screens at Chesterfield it said 0918 Liverpool Lime Street Cancelled.
However, immediately below this it said 0918 Liverpool Lime Street On time.
I asked one of the station staff whether it was cancelled or not? He went into the office and came out telling me that it should be running, but it hadn't yet left Nottingham and so would be at least 20 minutes late. I was told to listen for announcements.
I therefore considered going back south and to London instead and nearly got on the 0903 to St Pancras but decided to wait and see what happened, even if I probably would have to wait for the 1018.
At about 0910 the cancelled train disappeared from the screens but the 0918 on time train remained. I hadn't much hope because the screen showing the next departure remained blank. Then to my amazement at just after 0915 the Liverpool train was announced as th next arrival and it arrived and departed dead on time. The wrong information given to me at Chesterfield could very well have upset my plans for the day and caused me to go to London having already wasted time travelling up from EMD to Chesterfield.
It must have started from Nottingham and it was a very lightly loaded 4 carriage 158 with very few passengers in the rear unit. Even after Sheffield and Manchester there was plenty of room.
The same cannot be said for the single unit on the return 1752 from Liverpool, and although I got a good seat, there were standing passengers all the way from Liverpool until Sheffield, with passengers standing the length of the train between Manchester and Sheffield.
I was very lucky to arrive in Nottingham exactly on time at 2027 just in time to hurry across the bridge to get the 2032 back to EMD.
I caught the 0813 EMT York service from East Midlands Parkway [EMD] arriving in Chesterfield just before 9. When I looked at the screens at Chesterfield it said 0918 Liverpool Lime Street Cancelled.
However, immediately below this it said 0918 Liverpool Lime Street On time.
I asked one of the station staff whether it was cancelled or not? He went into the office and came out telling me that it should be running, but it hadn't yet left Nottingham and so would be at least 20 minutes late. I was told to listen for announcements.
I therefore considered going back south and to London instead and nearly got on the 0903 to St Pancras but decided to wait and see what happened, even if I probably would have to wait for the 1018.
At about 0910 the cancelled train disappeared from the screens but the 0918 on time train remained. I hadn't much hope because the screen showing the next departure remained blank. Then to my amazement at just after 0915 the Liverpool train was announced as th next arrival and it arrived and departed dead on time. The wrong information given to me at Chesterfield could very well have upset my plans for the day and caused me to go to London having already wasted time travelling up from EMD to Chesterfield.
It must have started from Nottingham and it was a very lightly loaded 4 carriage 158 with very few passengers in the rear unit. Even after Sheffield and Manchester there was plenty of room.
The same cannot be said for the single unit on the return 1752 from Liverpool, and although I got a good seat, there were standing passengers all the way from Liverpool until Sheffield, with passengers standing the length of the train between Manchester and Sheffield.
I was very lucky to arrive in Nottingham exactly on time at 2027 just in time to hurry across the bridge to get the 2032 back to EMD.
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MCR247
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Haha! This is the train I was on about earlier.
It was left Norwich on-time, March 2 minutes late, PBO 26 down, Grantham, 28 down and arrived Nottingham 30 down. EMT decided to run the Nottingham - Liverpool part on-time with a different train etc so it did start at Nottingham. The screens were wrong because technically the 0918 Liverpool was cancelled, but EMT was running another on-time 0918 service from nottingham.
If that makes sense
dk1
Veteran Member
All day every day :roll:
All makes perfect sense to me! If it leaves Nottingham in excess of 30' late, there's a fair chance that it'll end up regulated behind the Hope Valley stopping train, which will make it close to an hour late by New Mills (with the following train on the block behind, and probably being delayed itself). If it did get out of Sheffield ahead of the stopper, it'd probably still face a similar delay in or west of Manchester. Either way, there'd be little benefit over changing to the following one at Nottingham, but significant disruption to the return journey and to the remainder of the diagram.
TheBigD
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When I used to work them it was regular to get asked at Norwich what time it arrived at London. I used to announce it as going to Liverpool Merserside.
323235
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I was on it one time when some French people managed to get all the way from Norwich to just outside Nottingham before they were told they were on the wrong train for London Liverpool Street. They were told to get off at Chesterfield.
tbtc
Veteran Member
Ah, yes, the service I know and "love"...
It will be four coaches long eventually, but that depends on the 172s being introduced...
...the 150s (replaced by the 172s) going to Northern...
...the 156s (replaced by the 150s) going to EMT...
...which means it'll be a long time before everything is four coaches. 158s are fine on the route, in terms of speed and atmosphere, but they are far too short.
It's depressing to think that a two coach 158 runs from Norwich to Liverpool the same as a two car 158 will run from Cumbernauld to Motherwell. Ah, privatisation...
Chapeltom
Established Member
I have never bordered an EMT train to Liverpool/Warrington Central that was virtually empty or running on time. It is always late or full, or both!
TPE services are comfy, relaxing and very enjoyable, when they aren't late :/
TPE services are comfy, relaxing and very enjoyable, when they aren't late :/
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TPE - always full !YorkshireBear
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is it a worse or better service since 170's left the route?
MCR247
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Worse
WillPS
Established Member
Much worse. Worse still since the middle cars from 158s went too.
dk1
Veteran Member
On board ambience is so much better than those dreadful CT 158 days. Would not have been so bad if NX had renewed the entire carpet rather than just the cheapo option of the runner which left the filthy carpet beneath seats & tables along with the wall below windows. Many think they are now new trains. Such a shame the short formations (until next May) & lack of catering east of Nottingham let the side down.
Failed Unit
Established Member
I think there probably isn't much more to do to this service until the trains are lengthened.
It will be hard to speed it up and there are not many places it stops that are not needed. First class would be nice but not until we get the overcrowding sorted.
If we had lots of 158s spare (which we don't) I would run 4 car Ely - Liverpool and split the train with a portion to Cambridge (or Ipswich) and Norwich.
It will be hard to speed it up and there are not many places it stops that are not needed. First class would be nice but not until we get the overcrowding sorted.
If we had lots of 158s spare (which we don't) I would run 4 car Ely - Liverpool and split the train with a portion to Cambridge (or Ipswich) and Norwich.
dk1
Veteran Member
Have heard that the intention is to run all but the first & last services via the West curve at Ely with connections at Peterborough & (restoring the old Norwich-Birmingham 31 hauled services) at March. As you said 1st class is the least of this routes worries at present. Last Sunday i caught the 15.33 Ely-Norwich whilst avoiding the buses on the Liv St-Nrw route & found the train very busy on arrival from Peterborough.
Failed Unit
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I think that would be a backwards step. Ely is useful for the slower trains to Norwich. FCC services to Kings Lynn and Cambridge. I guess they may save a unit as with the time saved to Norwich. Maybe not as bad as missing out the other reversal at Sheffield. In BR days they avoided Grantham for ECML path avoidance. I think again the time penalty was too large.
MidnightFlyer
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It can only be used westbound (to Peterborough)
dk1
Veteran Member
Was always re-signalled for bi-di but never used due to a couple of prangs on single lead junctions in the early 90s. This has now been put right with TPWS & a few S&T alterations next year will also stop the wasteful double blocking over North Jn.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Will be difficult to save a unit at Norwich as will be very tight & Nottingham crews are booked a PNB.
Failed Unit
Established Member
It makes you think that 20 years ago the 158 was more than enough. It has the only service between Manchester and Sheffield as well. The Cleethorpes - Manchester service didn't begin until 1991 and was always very empty compared to the Ex-Norwich service.
dk1
Veteran Member
As dmu's go it still is a decent train. The very claustrophobic seating never did it any favours back in 1990 but you cannot argue with the units excellent ride characteristics. So smooth even on jointed track.
tbtc
Veteran Member
The EMT 158s are pretty fantastic inside, considering what the units are (and how old). They are better than a Voyager or Turbostar, and the best Sprinter I think I've travelled on.
The speed is fine for the route, the coaches are fine, the only problem is the lack of capacity. But we have 158s doing "Pacer-work" elsewhere in the UK, like Lymington... far from ideal!
Failed Unit
Established Member
I am one that prefers the 158s over the 170s. It is a pity the refurbishment was not more like Scotrails but the brief was to cram in as many seats as possible so unfortunately it was the right thing to do.
Thinking at the stopping pattern I think the only 2 that could be removed with bother that many passengers are Widnes and Alferton. Widnes has a lot of pax from Liverpool that could use Northern so even if it was not removed it could be stop to pick up only heading to Norwich. Alferton may have enough pax to warrant 2tph.
Thinking at the stopping pattern I think the only 2 that could be removed with bother that many passengers are Widnes and Alferton. Widnes has a lot of pax from Liverpool that could use Northern so even if it was not removed it could be stop to pick up only heading to Norwich. Alferton may have enough pax to warrant 2tph.
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