"Not valid on trains timed to depart" - 9I - least or most restrictive?

[reduke]

Yes, it's another one of these threads... I know these types questions have been asked time and again, but I can't seem to find a specific answer.

(Outbound portion of return here in question, final destination Nuneaton)

9I states no travel on trains departing STP before 10:26.
It also states no travel from LTN before 09:01

I have always understood that this would bar all travel on trains from LTN to London before 09:01 and bar travel on trains from STP to LTN (and onwards) timed before 10:26.

However, journey planners allow travel from LTN northbound on trains after 09:01 despite being timed from STP pre 10:26.

Is this the journey planner not being able to understand the complexity of restrictions and producing a ticket that would cause a disagreement with an inspector?

Or is it the case that the least restrictive restriction wins?

 

[30907]

If you can get an itinerary, the ticket is valid.

I notice that the summary in brfares.com references the Euston restriction, so I imagine the STP one is simply ignored electronically, as you would not normally depart from two London Terminals

 

[Watershed]

Yes, it's another one of these threads... I know these types questions have been asked time and again, but I can't seem to find a specific answer.

(Outbound portion of return here in question, final destination Nuneaton)

9I states no travel on trains departing STP before 10:26.
It also states no travel from LTN before 09:01

I have always understood that this would bar all travel on trains from LTN to London before 09:01 and bar travel on trains from STP to LTN (and onwards) timed before 10:26.

However, journey planners allow travel from LTN northbound on trains after 09:01 despite being timed from STP pre 10:26.

Is this the journey planner not being able to understand the complexity of restrictions and producing a ticket that would cause a disagreement with an inspector?

Or is it the case that the least restrictive restriction wins?

I wouldn't say it's the least restrictive restriction that wins (usually it is the other way around), but rather that the more specific restriction prevails. That is also the way the restriction is encoded in the electronic data used by journey planners, hence why you are offered the Off-Peak Return on journeys departing from 09:01 onwards.

The electronic restriction data format doesn't support rules based on the time that the train departed previous stations, so if EMR (or Avanti, at their behest) wanted the more onerous STP restrictions to apply to LTN departures too, they would need to specify this in both the text and the data.

In any event you don't need to concern yourself with these minutiae unless you are breaking your journey - you are contractually permitted to travel on the train(s) shown in your itinerary. You can refer back to that as evidence of the ticket's validity if there should be any dispute.

 

[reduke]

Thanks, that clarifies things somewhat.

To refer to another example, LS specifically bars travel from LTN to STP on the 09:28 EMR

However, CP only bars travel after 09:19

Does this mean that carnet off peaks are valid on the EMR where normal off peak tickets are not, even though national rail says carnets are valid to arrive at STP after 10am and the EMR arrives at 09:53?

I've never attempted this one as (AFAIK) it's not possible to get a journey planner for a carnet ticket, and I understand how notorious the inspectors are for carnets. On (action short of a )strike days though it would be very useful as the first fast thameslink off-peak is always the first on the chopping board.

 

[Watershed]

Thanks, that clarifies things somewhat.

To refer to another example, LS specifically bars travel from LTN to STP on the 09:28 EMR

However, CP only bars travel after 09:19

Does this mean that carnet off peaks are valid on the EMR where normal off peak tickets are not, even though national rail says carnets are valid to arrive at STP after 10am and the EMR arrives at 09:53?

I've never attempted this one as (AFAIK) it's not possible to get a journey planner for a carnet ticket, and I understand how notorious the inspectors are for carnets. On (action short of a )strike days though it would be very useful as the first fast thameslink off-peak is always the first on the chopping board.

No problem.

You only need to look at the restrictions that apply to the ticket you've bought, in this case CP for carnets. As you say, that has a cutoff of 09:19 from LTN, so the 09:28 EMR service would be permitted.

There is a 'proviso' in CP that it's not valid on the "09:31 East Midlands Trains" service but as there is neither a train at 09:31, nor is are any services operated by "East Midlands Trains" anymore, I would suggest you couldn't be penalised for travelling on the 09:28 EMR service.

The nre.co.uk/CP link should be printed on the ticket, so if there's any dispute you can again refer to this.

 

[skyhigh]

There is a 'proviso' in CP that it's not valid on the "09:31 East Midlands Trains" service but as there is neither a train at 09:31, nor is are any services operated by "East Midlands Trains" anymore, I would suggest you couldn't be penalised for travelling on the 09:28 EMR service.

Though now you've mentioned that, it might not last long before it's 'corrected'.