NR ticket machine not working: Oyster

[Electrostar]

When I touched in my Oyster PAYG card at my local Southeastern station this morning my balance was in credit but low. The ticket machine was out of order and the ticket office doesn't issue PAYG. The clerk offered the lady in front a more expensive paper ticket but told me I "should" have enough on my card to reach London.

In these circumstances what is the correct course of action? Should the ticket office issue platform tickets and are the central termini made aware of ticket machines that are out of order en route?

Offering a more expensive paper ticket doesn't seem fair. It's not the fault of commuters that Southeastern's machines are so poorly maintained.

 

[RJ]

a.) Buy a paper ticket
b.) Find the nearest xPert (Oyster machine) equipped newsagent

"Enough" is at least the price of the cheapest PAYG journey from that station at that time of day. You'd have to validate to check if you have enough to travel.

 

[Electrostar]

But why should I have to buy a more expensive paper ticket if Southeastern's machine is faulty? That doesn't seem fair. If Southeastern offers Oyster as part of its legal franchise requirements there must be a policy of what happens when their machines are at fault. Even if that means the ticket office issuing a 10p permit to travel which I exchange at the barriers at the London terminus where they top up my Oyster and take away the balance of that journey.

The nearest newsagent is at least three-quarters of a mile away which isn't a convenient diversion.

 

[LexyBoy]

I agree - the fact that the cheapest fare is only available on a particular medium should not absolve the TOC of the requirement to offer the cheapest ticket valid for the passenger's planned journey. I've mentioned this before in relation to SWT-land where no Oyster facilities were provided at stations (they now are).

However, it does seem to be the case that it is not a requirement for TOCs to offer Oyster; I can't remember exactly the reasoning. I'm sure there are other examples nationwide of e.g. regional travel passes being valid on trains but not issued at stations.

 

[dzug2]

If the machine lets you on to the platform you can travel - they tolerate you going into deficit on arrival as long as it's in credit by the next journey

 

[RJ]

But why should I have to buy a more expensive paper ticket if Southeastern's machine is faulty? That doesn't seem fair. If Southeastern offers Oyster as part of its legal franchise requirements there must be a policy of what happens when their machines are at fault. Even if that means the ticket office issuing a 10p permit to travel which I exchange at the barriers at the London terminus where they top up my Oyster and take away the balance of that journey.

The nearest newsagent is at least three-quarters of a mile away which isn't a convenient diversion.

There is a policy and it doesn't involve free rides when the TVM readers are down. There are plenty of other stations that people travel to that similarly have no way of resolving incomplete Oyster journeys.

The Oyster Conditions of Use on National Rail will provide a better explanation than I can - http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/galleries/download/misc/Oystercou.pdf

 

[MikeWh]

For the future, if you travel reasonably regularly you should consider auto top-up. You order it online with a request to top-up immediately from the next day. Then, every time you start a journey with a balance less than £8.00 the system will debit your credit/debit card for either £20 or £40 (you decide which when you set it up). You don't need to worry about not knowing when this happens because it also triggers an email every time it tops up so you can check your journey history and see if there have been any issues. It only tops up at the start of a journey, so if you end a journey with less than £8.00 and then don't use the card for a while it won't have taken a top up too early.

 

[island]

If the machine lets you on to the platform you can travel - they tolerate you going into deficit on arrival as long as it's in credit by the next journey

Correct. However, I think you can't touch in if you don't have enough credit to cover the cheapest possible journey you can make from the station you're at.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There is a policy and it doesn't involve free rides when the TVM readers are down. There are plenty of other stations that people travel to that similarly have no way of resolving incomplete Oyster journeys.

The Oyster Conditions of Use on National Rail will provide a better explanation than I can - http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/galleries/download/misc/Oystercou.pdf

Dead link...

 

[OwlMan]

try
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downlo...use-on-national-rail-services-august-2011.pdf

 

[Brucey]

Try this link instead http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/Oystercou.pdf

 

[34D]

Try this link instead http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/Oystercou.pdf

Also dead. Instead of links, would someone be kind enough to summarise/copy and paste what this link says should happen in the scenario described by the OP - and why it isn't a free ride?

 

[wintonian]

Try it as an attachment.

It is a .pdf document so if you haven't got a PDF reader you can get one here.

(The last 2 links worked for me)

 

[yorkie]

I can't see anything there that sets out what should happen in this scenario.

If TOCs are going to use Oyster as an excuse to get out of providing the cheapest fare due to a lack of facilities, then we need to bring back Off Peak Day paper tickets at the appropriate price.

It appears to be suggested that rights can be eroded (or have been eroded) by the replacement of such paper tickets by Oyster PAYG. If that is the case, that is completely unacceptable. It also should have been made clear at the time.

 

[34D]

Try it as an attachment.

It is a .pdf document so if you haven't got a PDF reader you can get one here.

(The last 2 links worked for me)

Thank you for the attachment, this works for me - but as per yorkie I can't see the question being answered.

I fail to see how this scenario is any different to 'ticket machine not issuing the ticket I need'.

I would like to think you could be given a stamped docket by the ticket office/barrier staff at your start station - or alternatively be sold a paper ticket with the price adjusted so you pay no more than you would pay on oyster (noting caps and subsequent/future travel that day - which would predict).

Do we have anyone who works in an LU booking office here? Is there a way to manually add a journey - ie could on-train revenue manually add a 'touch in' to someones oyster record?

 

[Urban Gateline]

I think that the people moaning about the lack of Oyster Facilities, need to remember just how many newsagents and small shops actually do offer Oyster products! Even in the scenario that the station's TVM may be out of service, there is most likely a shop nearby that can sell Oyster products to anyone who needs it.

I think it's fair to say that most stations in the London zonal boundary do offer Oyster topup now, and bigger stations will have several machines so you don't encounter this problem as much.
As for repairing machines, what if it is peak time and the person from the ticket office cannot come out to fix the machine, sometimes it isn't possible to fix it until it's already caused inconvenience. I am somewhat inclined to think that Oyster, being a TFL product, should not be burdened on TOC's to deal with any shortcomings, any offerings of Oyster products at TOC's stations should be seen as a favour.

 

[yorkie]

I am somewhat inclined to think that Oyster, being a TFL product, should not be burdened on TOC's to deal with any shortcomings, any offerings of Oyster products at TOC's stations should be seen as a favour.

It was decided by the DfT back in 2006 that TOC's would be, as you say "burdened" with Oyster, however I have to question whether it is really a "burden"?

This is, of course, going waaaay off-topic, and it's a matter of personal opinion about what you think should be the case, but isn't the case, being quoted above, that we are now debating

www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/corporate/Item08-Oyster-NR.pdf

Preliminary results from this research indicate that the introduction of Oyster increased National Rail journeys by about 5.5 per cent and accounts for nearly 40 per cent of all pay as you go trips. The generated revenue from this growth in journeys is currently being assessed but would easily amount to more than £50m for a full year at current traffic levels.

http://www.nationalexpressgroup.com/ar2010/business-review/uk-rail.html

...the extension of the Oyster card to suburban rail improved revenue.....

The TOCs seem quite happy with Oyster PAYG and it has increased their revenues. There must be no excuses now to ensure that absolutely no rights have been eroded by the introduction of Oyster PAYG.

If there is a shop very near the station, and it is made absolutely clear that is the case, then I have no problem with that acting as a ticket office - providing it is as close as a ticket office could reasonably be expected to be (Merseyrail's ticket offices are also shops, "M to go", so there is a sort-of precedent there!) and, as with when the ticket office is closed, if the shop is closed, I expect the customer to be entitled to pay the cheaper fare at the next opportunity and not be penalised.

Oyster PAYG makes money for the TOCs, and it's because of convenience to customers. If certain TOC make it inconvenient, then they threaten to undermine confidence in the entire system (as well as their own brand). Brian Souter's track record speaks for itself though.

 

[bicbasher]

The problems I have with using the Oyster Ticket Stop as an alternative is many retailers won't accept credit/debit cards as an alternative method of payment or slap a charge on top, so unless you have a cashpoint nearby, it can be inconvenient. Not to mention that some retailers impose a minimum top up of between £1-£5 depending on the outlet.

If I really need to top-up credit and don't have the time to use the ticket office/TVM or ticket shop, instead of using the Auto top-up as Mike suggests, I add £5 manually online which works out better for me, although you have to do this before 2300 the day before to ensure you can collect the next day.

 

[MikeWh]

Do we have anyone who works in an LU booking office here? Is there a way to manually add a journey - ie could on-train revenue manually add a 'touch in' to someones oyster record?

Pretty sure the answer to that is no. The mobile Oyster reader hasn't got the technology, or buttons even, to do anything other than read a card.

The TOCs seem quite happy with Oyster PAYG and it has increased their revenues. There must be no excuses now to ensure that absolutely no rights have been eroded by the introduction of Oyster PAYG.

I think that there is some confusion over what Oyster is supposed to be. In PAYG mode it is effectively an electronic wallet. The fact that you can usually add money to that wallet at a TVM is a convenience more than a right. However, you are only adding money. You don't buy the ticket until you touch out at the end of the journey. If you have no money on the card then you can't use it, in much the same way as if your current account is overdrawn you can't use your debit card to buy tickets (simplistic, so please don't pick holes in that last bit). That didn't stop me being frustrated one Sunday when I hadn't put the £1.30 on the kid's cards so had to buy a £2 travelcard instead as the Oyster link was down at the TVM.

 

[34D]

I think that the people moaning about the lack of Oyster Facilities, need to remember just how many newsagents and small shops actually do offer Oyster products! Even in the scenario that the station's TVM may be out of service, there is most likely a shop nearby that can sell Oyster products to anyone who needs it.

And as far as densely populated zone 2/3 goes you are absolutely right.

I challenge you to go to Crews Hill, find that the station TVM is out of order, and then walk to the nearest oyster retailer.

The problems I have with using the Oyster Ticket Stop as an alternative is many retailers won't accept credit/debit cards as an alternative method of payment or slap a charge on top, so unless you have a cashpoint nearby, it can be inconvenient. Not to mention that some retailers impose a minimum top up of between £1-£5 depending on the outlet.

Do some still charge their own 'fee' then? I thought TfL had clamped down on this? I think many people would be wary of going in a random unknown corner shop and undertaking an oyster transaction....

 

[bicbasher]

Do some still charge their own 'fee' then? I thought TfL had clamped down on this? I think many people would be wary of going in a random unknown corner shop and undertaking an oyster transaction....

My local ticket stop imposes a 50p card charge on top of an Oyster transaction and it has to be over £10. They also impose a £1 minimum top-up (his argument at the time they introduced it was that it was the price of a single bus fare) and also refuses to add Oyster discount photocard numbers such as the Bus+Tram photocard and New Deal to the card, but is happy to sell the discount passes.

 

[island]

Do some still charge their own 'fee' then? I thought TfL had clamped down on this? I think many people would be wary of going in a random unknown corner shop and undertaking an oyster transaction....

I can sympathize with them as far as card payments are concerned, because the margin on Oyster top-ups is probably very low so a card payment may push the sale to loss-making.