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Nutter attacks female conductor on Cambrian

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Gareth Marston

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From tonight's Shropshire Star.

http://www.shropshirestar.com/news/2014/06/04/passenger-locked-ticket-collector-out-of-train/http://www.shropshirestar.com/news/2014/06/04/passenger-locked-ticket-collector-out-of-train/

Passenger locked ticket collector out of train
A man grappled and spat at a conductor before locking her out of a train because he did not want to buy a ticket.


Matthew Tisdale


Matthew Tisdale tackled conductor Louise Caisley as he tried to board a train to Newtown at Welshpool station, before leaving her on the platform as he locked the doors.

Tisdale, 21, then tried to signal to the driver to pull away.

He was given 250 hours unpaid work, a 12-month community order and was ordered to pay £50 compensation, £85 costs and a £60 victim surcharge.

Tisdale admitted charges of endangering the safety of people on a railway, assault by beating and interfering with automatic doors on a railway in relation to the incident on January 8.

He also admitted trespassing on a railway at Abbey Foregate, Shrewsbury, on March 17.

Mrs Helen Tench, prosecuting, said Tisdale, of Wesley Place, Newtown, attempted to board the train at Welshpool at 7.57pm to get home.

She said: “The conductor, Louise Caisley, asked him to present a ticket while boarding and he said he didn’t have one and did not have the money to pay.”

He then began swearing at Ms Caisley and telling her he was getting on the train “no matter what”.

She added: “He then pushed into her as he tried to get on the train and a grapple broke out, with the conductor suffering reddening to her face as a result of force used by the defendant.

“He then spat at her and the amount was so large it showed up on CCTV later viewed by police.

“The conductor then ended up on the platform and Tisdale jumped on board closing the doors and then pressing another button which locked the doors.

“He tried to signal to the driver to move on, but the driver realised what had happened and came to the conductor’s aid and Tisdale was ejected and the police were called.”

Mrs Tench said Tisdale then refused to cooperate or even attend any police interviews.

In relation to the trespassing charge, she said: “An off-duty police officer saw the defendant around the train tracks. He was warned to stay away from the area and the police were notified.

“Again he did not attend interviews.”

Miss Ceri Edwards, for Tisdale, said: “For a man of his age, my client has an unenviable record building up.

“He was formerly a successful young man who had achieved much in school and was a highly thought of young member of the local Labour Party.” She said he was ashamed and was now vowing to make something of his life again.
 

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GadgetMan

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Does all that and gets to walk out of court a free man to continue being a pillar of society. F***ing brilliant.
 

Flying Snail

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Assaulting a woman, spitting at her, interfering with the train operation, trespassing, not attending police interviews and a large number of previous offences.

What exactly does someone have to do to be given a custodial sentence?
 

yorkie

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What exactly does someone have to do to be given a custodial sentence?
A lot (unless you're in a "duty of care" in which case, very little)

We know that if you have 18 convictions and then engage in racism, violence, aggravated trespass, theft of a vehicle, driving dangerously, crashing a vehicle, resisting arrest, and possessing cocaine results in you being let off (see the story of the pathetic weasel scum-bag morally corrupt Ian Houillebecq )

So, what do you have to do? Well, you could not feed a dog for a few days and set it loose to eat a man alive, but you'll only be jailed for a very short time indeed.

Our legal system is absolutely, completely and utterly bonkers. (and no, Ralph & co, I am not changing my mind)
 

Bodiddly

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:lol:

Was he also an ex guard? Not every Tom, Dick or Hywell knows how to close the doors on a 158, lock the local door and give a driver the right away. He would have least have had to have known the bell buzzer code :;)

Assaulting a woman, spitting at her, interfering with the train operation, trespassing, not attending police interviews and a large number of previous offences.

What exactly does someone have to do to be given a custodial sentence?

Refuse to pay a TV licence or a parking fine? :lol:
 

ivanhoe

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This would normally be a custodial sentence for such an assault. The Shropshire Star may not have given the complete picture but I am lost for words if the story is correct.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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My thoughts go out to Louise Caisley and hope this incident will see her receiving the full support of the TOC. I note the report states that Tisdale did not bother to attend any police interviews yet his council said that he was now vowing to make something of his life again. If this incident was an attempt to achieve that aim, there appears to be no hope for him.
 

Gareth Marston

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If it was Magistrates Court they would be heavily influenced by guidelines and the defendents prior history or lack of .....

Thankfully not in my daughters circle though she was in same year at school as him, asked her if she knew him and got some negative feedback about him.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
My thoughts go out to Louise Caisley and hope this incident will see her receiving the full support of the TOC. I note the report states that Tisdale did not bother to attend any police interviews yet his council said that he was now vowing to make something of his life again. If this incident was an attempt to achieve that aim, there appears to be no hope for him.

Louise is a very pleasant and efficient conductor based at Machynlleth and is normally a very happy soul who always talks to the passengers even on the 0514 ex Aberystwyth I haven't seen her a while.
 

user15681

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Disgusting, no excuse.

I sincerely hope Louise Caisley can recover from this.
 

yorkie

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Louise is a very pleasant and efficient conductor based at Machynlleth and is normally a very happy soul who always talks to the passengers even on the 0514 ex Aberystwyth I haven't seen her a while.
And yet the defence solicitor, Ceri Edwards, said “He was formerly a successful young man who had achieved much in school and was a highly thought of young member of the local Labour Party.":roll:

Clearly people like Ceri Edwards cannot be trusted to give an accurate representation of a persons character. It sounds to me like she will literally say anything to try to get the judge to be sympathetic.

I wonder how people like her can bring themselves to do a job where, basically, a part of the job is to get scumbags out of the punishments they deserve by giving false representations?
 

Flying Snail

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A lot (unless you're in a "duty of care" in which case, very little)

Oh well that's different. I'm sure if the poor chap had injured himself on the door control panel there would have been a large investigation of the minutiae of railway procedures and the actions of the Guard.

We know that if you have 18 convictions and then engage in racism, violence, aggravated trespass, theft of a vehicle, driving dangerously, crashing a vehicle, resisting arrest, and possessing cocaine results in you being let off (see the story of the pathetic weasel scum-bag morally corrupt Ian Houillebecq )

So, what do you have to do? Well, you could not feed a dog for a few days and set it loose to eat a man alive, but you'll only be jailed for a very short time indeed.

Our legal system is absolutely, completely and utterly bonkers. (and no, Ralph & co, I am not changing my mind)

Bonkers would very much depend on your perspective.

If you want to look at it as a means to efficiently and effectively deal with law breakers with a primary focus of providing a safe society for the majority of law abiding tax-payers then yes it is utterly bonkers.

If on the other hand you look at it as a efficient and effective system of ensuring an ongoing flood of publicly funded highly paid work for those in the legal profession then it is in fact an excellent system, world class in fact.



It turns out this individual is on Twitter, funnily enough in between the usual yoof nonsense and some vague fight the rich talk he didn't mention attacking and spitting at a woman just doing her job. I guess that if you can't fight the powah then just having a go at anyone better than yourself is fair enough.

https://twitter.com/MatthewTisdale1

I do not partake in twitter myself but I believe the appropriate post would be along the lines of #MatthewTisdaleScumbag
 

GatwickDepress

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I echo the sentiments of Paul. I hope Louise Caisley recovers fully from this, since it's indefensibly despicable behaviour from Matthew Tisdale.
 

Bodiddly

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And yet the defence solicitor, Ceri Edwards, said “He was formerly a successful young man who had achieved much in school and was a highly thought of young member of the local Labour Party.":roll:

Clearly people like Ceri Edwards cannot be trusted to give an accurate representation of a persons character. It sounds to me like she will literally say anything to try to get the judge to be sympathetic.

I wonder how people like her can bring themselves to do a job where, basically, a part of the job is to get scumbags out of the punishments they deserve by giving false representations?

Because Ceri Edwards gets paid for it. Like it or lump it, some people work in jobs or careers they don't agree with. I couldn't defend scumbags in court as much as I couldn't work in a tobacco factory or an abattoir.
But as was mentioned before, I hope the managers deal sympathetically with Louise with the respect she deserves after this ordeal. Nobody should be expected to deal with this at their work.
 

WestCoast

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I have the upmost respect for guards who have to face, alone, charming members of society such as this nasty piece of work. They don't have the 'luxury' of a screen nor do they have support readily available (aside from fellow passengers).

In my view, such actions should result in a custodial sentence and also a ban from using public transport until individuals have proven that they are civil enough to use it!
 
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DarloRich

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And yet the defence solicitor, Ceri Edwards, said “He was formerly a successful young man who had achieved much in school and was a highly thought of young member of the local Labour Party.":roll:

Clearly people like Ceri Edwards cannot be trusted to give an accurate representation of a persons character. It sounds to me like she will literally say anything to try to get the judge to be sympathetic.

I wonder how people like her can bring themselves to do a job where, basically, a part of the job is to get scumbags out of the punishments they deserve by giving false representations?

I wrote a long response then changed it as i simply dont want a ban. I will say four things:

1) I disagree with this point of view entirely and consider it to simplistic and offering a naive view of the world

2) What sort of person is ,in your opinion, entitled to a defense or to offer any mitigation?

3) Would you offer any defense or mitigation should you find yourself before the courts. I know i would. If it is ok for you and I why not everybody else?

4) Despite believing in and defending our justice system that in no way detracts from the utter contempt and disgust i feel toward the criminal and the hope that the victim is able to return to her duties as quickly as possible with help, support, care, advice and guidance from her employer. No one should be assaulted at work.
 

Starmill

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I have been on a train worked by Louise Caisley before! Gosh :/ I hope she's alright .

:lol:Was he also an ex guard? Not every Tom, Dick or Hywell knows how to close the doors on a 158, lock the local door and give a driver the right away. He would have least have had to have known the bell buzzer code :;)

Well, that's precisely what I thought...

In 2012, I took this picture and posted it on the forum (on an ATW 158 I think, actually).

Now, it's not totally obvious what one does with that. I've never dispatched a 158 (obviously...), but I think the correct sequence would be to press the blue button, wait for the other doors to close, flip the rocker up and the press the green button twice (without all of the safety checks etc.). I'm sure somebody who works them can confirm but I can't really fit that in with what the paper says he did...

Now... that will take a certain amount of prior knowledge, surely! And it would only work if the Door Key Switch was already turned on, yeah? It doesn't even say 'buzzer' or anything, but 'signal' (which I'm given to understand is fairly standard, but nonetheless a little opaque). I'm also interested as to how the driver realised what had happened. I wonder if the fool only gave 1 buzz, which might have attracted attention (e.g. the driver can't call the guard on a 158 unless the guard goes back into the cab, so perhaps he or she looked out of the window?).

What a scary thought if somebody who knew how to do that (and had the intent to obviously) could get the train going and abandon the guard!
 

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Tracky

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I suspect he pressed close button on the panel after closing the door he was at with the passenger door close button. That would give interlock and allow him to use the signal button.

Again, only a suspicion but I doubt he would know buzzer codes so expect he just gave one.
 

Flying Snail

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1) I disagree with this point of view entirely and consider it to simplistic and offering a naive view of the world

And where has the current non-simplistic view based system got us? A society where anti social behaviour and thuggish criminality is rampant and growing.

If assaulting someone in this manner = significant custodial sentence comes under being too simplistic than that is a label I can live with.

2) What sort of person is ,in your opinion, entitled to a defense or to offer any mitigation?

Where has it been said that people aren't entitled to a defense? What people take issue to is that all too often the "defense" is not a factual repudiation of the events as put forward but an end-around of the facts by attacking the minutiae of legal procedures and technicalities.

As for mitigation for sentencing purposes the problem isn't that it is offered but that such rubbish as "he did well in school", "a few people like him" and "he wants to turn his life around" are given any weight at all.

3) Would you offer any defense or mitigation should you find yourself before the courts. I know i would. If it is ok for you and I why not everybody else?

If I was before a court and that sort of rubbish was all that could be offered in mitigation I wouldn't expect any leniency. Of course if the situation arose then the first thing that would be offered would be to point out that I had no previous record of any sort, something that was notably absent in this case.

4) Despite believing in and defending our justice system that in no way detracts from the utter contempt and disgust i feel toward the criminal and the hope that the victim is able to return to her duties as quickly as possible with help, support, care, advice and guidance from her employer. No one should be assaulted at work.

If it had been me (and having spent the last x years in a frontline transport job it I have been in similar situations on a number of occasions) your wish would be of no comfort whatsoever.

As for the help and support from employer, that is all well and good but who pays for it? Certainly not the person responsible and that is the crux of the justice system at present, even when every hoop is gone through and a case is proved everyone bar the perpetrator pays.
 

Jonny

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What a scary thought if somebody who knew how to do that (and had the intent to obviously) could get the train going and abandon the guard!

It would only take a certain item, which has other, legitimate uses and is available on eBay to gain access to the switch as well.
 

Flying Snail

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I suspect he pressed close button on the panel after closing the door he was at with the passenger door close button. That would give interlock and allow him to use the signal button.

Again, only a suspicion but I doubt he would know buzzer codes so expect he just gave one.

Anyone who travels regularly on certain units would be familiar enough with the guards door procedures as they do them in full view of passengers.

It is also the case that scumbags are often well educated in how to interfere in things they shouldn't.

Maybe he fluked locking the doors or maybe he knew, either way it was lucky the train didn't leave without the guard as it would have caused chaos further on and no doubt recriminations on the train crew and operator as a result.
 

Jonny

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This would normally be a custodial sentence for such an assault. The Shropshire Star may not have given the complete picture but I am lost for words if the story is correct.

Newspapers being newspapers, that is quite possible I'm afraid. Another factor would be the reports (probation service, medical, etc.) which might not be mentioned in court.
 

BestWestern

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Tracky:1812855 said:
I suspect he pressed close button on the panel after closing the door he was at with the passenger door close button. That would give interlock and allow him to use the signal button.

Again, only a suspicion but I doubt he would know buzzer codes so expect he just gave one.

He still wouldn't have had interlock, as the local door would remain released with the passenger buttons lit.

Anyway, I suspect he has simply observed Guards operating the doors previously. If he'a a regular on the trains it wouldn't take long to gain an understanding, it's all done in full view of anybody stood in the immediate area of the doors. Hence the golden rule, always lock the door panel when you leave it!

I would imagine the Guard prevented the train leaving by simple use of a certain item fitted to the outside of the train.
 
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Muzer

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My thoughts go to the guard involved, horrible thing to happen.

But this got me thinking - solely out of interest, if you were the guard in this situation, obviously with the caveat of us on here having all the time in the world to think it over rather than being in a position like that in real life with real time and emotional pressures, what would be the best course of action? As soon as he shut the door, if you knew he was going to try to signal the driver to depart (which I'm guessing the guard might well not have done), would the best thing be to move to the next door (to avoid further immediate conflict) and operate the external emergency door open switch in order to prevent the driver getting interlock? Or is there another way of attracting the driver's attention to prevent them from leaving?

EDIT: Ah, BestWestern posted the same idea while I was posting ;)
 

DownSouth

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As for mitigation for sentencing purposes the problem isn't that it is offered but that such rubbish as "he did well in school", "a few people like him" and "he wants to turn his life around" are given any weight at all.
Were they given any weight though? All the paper has noted was that those things were said, it didn't report whether the judge made any mention of them in sentencing.

As for the help and support from employer, that is all well and good but who pays for it? Certainly not the person responsible and that is the crux of the justice system at present, even when every hoop is gone through and a case is proved everyone bar the perpetrator pays.
Is there a workplace injury insurance scheme (injury can include mental health issues caused in the workplace) in Britain? They would be the ones paying for the necessary therapy and support for a return to work plan (which would be funded out of premiums, of course) while you would hope the train operator would have an insurance fund set up to limit their liabilities in circumstances like this instead of leaving them out of pocket.

For the broader issue of "who pays" for the whole lot, if it were a person of greater wealth instead of Tisdale then the train company and/or the workplace insurer) would have the option of making a civil claim for compensation over the costs incurred in paying for their employee's rehabilitation, extra payroll costs of paying overtime to others who would cover her role, and so on.

But unless you want to roll back the clock 200+ years and reintroduce slavery, sometimes you just have to accept you can't get all the money back.

And yet the defence solicitor, Ceri Edwards, said “He was formerly a successful young man who had achieved much in school and was a highly thought of young member of the local Labour Party.":roll:

Clearly people like Ceri Edwards cannot be trusted to give an accurate representation of a persons character. It sounds to me like she will literally say anything to try to get the judge to be sympathetic.

I wonder how people like her can bring themselves to do a job where, basically, a part of the job is to get scumbags out of the punishments they deserve by giving false representations?
A quick search will reveal that Ceri Edwards is a junior solicitor who works for a local firm which is a Legal Aid provider, so she was probably the only one able to represent Tisdale. It definitely doesn't sound like she's some high-flying celebrity lawyer making hundreds of thousands of pounds from spending weeks researching possible loopholes for the case, she was probably quite embarrassed to be going through the motions of representing Tisdale in such an obvious case.

It does appear that she did the major part of her role correctly - convincing Tisdale to plead guilty and save everyone the wastage of having a trial. The principle of making sure justice is done and that justice is seen to be done demands that she say at least something when asked if there is anything to offer in mitigation, even if it's just trotting out a couple of sentences of predictable tripe which is actually just code for "no, there's nothing really."

Any lawyer wanting to work in criminal law has to go through this entry-level stage of a career before getting to move up the ranks and do any meaningful work. They don't get paid well doing this stuff, and they definitely don't enjoy it.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Or is there another way of attracting the driver's attention to prevent them from leaving?
It could even have been as simple as the driver hearing the incident happening and taking a look out his window at the platform - very possible if this is a quiet station without any other trains noisily running through. If the driver sees their colleague on the platform when the doors close and a buzzer code comes through you'd hope they'd pause for just long enough to realise something's not right.
 

LowLevel

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I'm afraid I'd have been sorely tested not to brain him with the ticket machine or a track circuit clip afterwards, little scrote. Could have been a terrorist playing around like that.
 

Emyr

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Which portion of the public would you terrorise by causing disruption on the Cambrian line? Attracting attention seems not to align well with terrorist intents.

I hope Ms Caisley can be supported in returning to her role and wish her an uneventful future as a valued member of the workforce.
 

Greenback

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I'm a bit torn about this. While I do agree that this man is a scumbag, it is not a rare thing to happen in our modern society. Instead of a guard, you can substitute just about any other front line occupation and such assaults are not unknown. In fact, in such places as our A&E departments I'd go so far as to say they are common, which probably contributes to the shortage of doctors willing to specialise in emergency medicine.

But, having said that, I'm not sure we can rely on local newspapers to provide us with an accurate and full report. As has been mentioned there seems to have been no mention of the comments made by the judge when it came to sentencing. I also can't see any alternative to the advocate way of doing things. I agree with DarloRich that, under this system, everyone is entitled to a defence and mitigation, but I would be interested to see any proposals for a different way of doing things.

Finally, DownSouth's description of the structure of the legal profession and the phrasing of mitigation into a code, is pretty accurate according to previous discussions with some legal friends of mine, one of whom is a retired solicitor.
 

Pugwash

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My thoughts are of course with the victim the assalt sounded serious and unprovoked, however the thread title has no place in modern society. The a

There is an was no mention of mental health issues, but the use of the word 'nutter' is distasteful to say the least.
 
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