Off-peak ticket and delayed peak train

[XmaX]

Let's say that on a particular route, a train is off-peak if it arrives into London after 10:00. I intend to take the first off-peak train of the day, arriving London at, let's say, 10:10. However, upon arriving at the station, I notice that an earlier train has been delayed and is now expected to arrive London at 10:01. Am I allowed to take it when holding an off-peak ticket?

I'm assuming the answer is no, because the scheduled arrival is before 10. However, at least at my station, delayed trains only show revised calling times, so how am I supposed to know the scheduled times?

 

[Bletchleyite]

It depends on the exact wording of the restriction on the ticket. Can you advise what exactly the ticket is?

 

[Watershed]

Let's say that on a particular route, a train is off-peak if it arrives into London after 10:00. I intend to take the first off-peak train of the day, arriving London at, let's say, 10:10. However, upon arriving at the station, I notice that an earlier train has been delayed and is now scheduled to arrive London at 10:01. Am I allowed to take it when holding an off-peak ticket?

I'm assuming the answer is no, because the scheduled arrival is before 10. However, at least at my station, delayed trains only show revised calling times, so how am I supposed to know the scheduled times?

It depends on what the restriction text of the relevant restriction code says. But the vast majority refer to trains "timed to depart/arrive" at the specified time, so you can't catch a delayed train if it was scheduled to arrive at a barred time. It's generally only Railcard time/fare restrictions that are based on the actual time of departure.

It's the passenger's responsibility to check that the train they are travelling on meets the time restrictions of their ticket. Quite how they're supposed to do that if information is sparse is another matter, but these sorts of problems existed even before the days of digital displays.

I expect the majority of staff would exercise discretion, but you could come up against some who insist on you paying the excess.

 

[Haywain]

I notice that an earlier train has been delayed and is now scheduled to arrive London at 10:01.

How would you know what time it's going to arrive in London? A delayed train only has its original schedule.

 

[XmaX]

It depends on the exact wording of the restriction on the ticket. Can you advise what exactly the ticket is?

In my case it's Cambridge-London, although the question is rather theoretical. Very rarely would those few minutes actually make a difference for me (although the first off-peak train tends to be quite crowded!).

How would you know what time it's going to arrive in London? A delayed train only has its original schedule.

I believe that In Cambridge, the main departure boards only show the delayed calling times.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In my case it's Cambridge-London, although the question is rather theoretical. Very rarely would those few minutes actually make a difference for me (although the first off-peak train tends to be quite crowded!).

Would need to know the specific ticket.

Basically you get two wordings, either:
"Not valid on trains timed to/scheduled to depart/arrive..."
or:
"Not valid on trains departing/arriving..."

The former is on the timetabled time, the latter would also allow a delayed train delayed past the restriction.

I believe that In Cambridge, the main departure boards only show the delayed calling times.

I'd be astonished if that was true. That only happens at stations with a very, very frequent service where no Advances are offered, e.g. Clapham Jn towards Waterloo and Victoria.

Edit: if you mean the ones on the right on the calling points, those are indeed only expected times at all stations, but they're relatively new anyway as a helpful guide. You need to refer to the actual timetable, either on paper or online, if in doubt.

 

[XmaX]

It's an off-peak day return, restriction is "Outward & Return: VALID BY TRAINS DUE IN LDN AT/AFTER 1000 M-F"

I'd be astonished if that was true. That only happens at stations with a very, very frequent service where no Advances are offered, e.g. Clapham Jn towards Waterloo and Victoria

I'm 80% sure it's true, and I think they only display the delayed times, not scheduled (other than the departure time). I'll double check later today (assuming there are any delays!)

 

[Haywain]

I believe that In Cambridge, the main departure boards only show the delayed calling times.

Expected times are not scheduled times, there's an important distinction.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's an off-peak day return, restriction is "Outward & Return: VALID BY TRAINS DUE IN LDN AT/AFTER 1000 M-F"

It's the full restriction that matters but assuming it's the Any Permitted one (C4) then:

Not valid on trains timed to depart after 04:29 which arrive at, or depart from; any London Terminal, Farringdon, or Kensington Olympia before 10:00.

As it says "timed to", that means the timetabled time is the one that matters in this case.

With the other version of the wording, unless a delayed train is very late, if a restriction is based on an arrival into London you're best not risking it, else your journey is rather a game of Russian roulette!

 

[Watershed]

It's the full restriction that matters but assuming it's the Any Permitted one (C4) then:

Not valid on trains timed to depart after 04:29 which arrive at, or depart from; any London Terminal, Farringdon, or Kensington Olympia before 10:00.

As it says "timed to", that means the timetabled time is the one that matters in this case.

With the other version of the wording, unless a delayed train is very late, if a restriction is based on an arrival into London you're best not risking it, else your journey is rather a game of Russian roulette!

Technically the "timed to" bit could be said to refer only to whether the train departs after 04:29...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Technically the "timed to" bit could be said to refer only to whether the train departs after 04:29...

You're actually right...so this one is a bit of both!

 

[XmaX]

Technically the "timed to" bit could be said to refer only to whether the train departs after 04:29...

This is even more interesting than I initially expected. I'd actually interpret this, together with "VALID BY TRAINS DUE IN LDN AT/AFTER 1000 M-F" as the expected arrival time. I'd say, that 'expected to arrive' = 'due to arrive', to the extent that if a delayed train is expected to arrive at 10:01, but ultimately arrives at 9:59, then it's still fine. Whether the guards/TOC see it the same way is a separate question...

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is even more interesting than I initially expected. I'd actually interpret this, together with "VALID BY TRAINS DUE IN LDN AT/AFTER 1000 M-F" as the expected arrival time. I'd say, that 'expected to arrive' = 'due to arrive', to the extent that if a delayed train is expected to arrive at 10:01, but ultimately arrives at 9:59, then it's still fine. Whether the guards/TOC see it the same way is a separate question...

Quite the opposite. A train is "due" at the timetabled time, and "expected" at another time if it's early or late.

Unfortunately some PIS displays blur this by using "Due" instead of "Exptd" at the head of the delay column.

 

[Watershed]

This is even more interesting than I initially expected. I'd actually interpret this, together with "VALID BY TRAINS DUE IN LDN AT/AFTER 1000 M-F" as the expected arrival time. I'd say, that 'expected to arrive' = 'due to arrive', to the extent that if a delayed train is expected to arrive at 10:01, but ultimately arrives at 9:59, then it's still fine. Whether the guards/TOC see it the same way is a separate question...

Unless you were told "VALID BY TRAINS DUE IN LDN AT/AFTER 1000 M-F" when buying your ticket (e.g. at the ticket machine), I would be wary of relying on it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Unless you were told "VALID BY TRAINS DUE IN LDN AT/AFTER 1000 M-F" when buying your ticket (e.g. at the ticket machine), I would be wary of relying on it.

Scheidt & Bachmann ticket machines do show that summary line, though I don't know what machine type is in use at Cambridge.

 

[Kilopylae]

Not valid on trains timed to depart after 04:29 which arrive at, or depart from; any London Terminal, Farringdon, or Kensington Olympia before 10:00.

I would say this makes it fairly unambiguously valid!

If we break the sentence down:

Not valid on trains [timed to depart after 04:29] [which arrive at, or depart from; any London Terminal, Farringdon, or Kensington Olympia before 10:00]

So it's not valid on a train which arrives at a London Terminal before 10:00 (provided that said train had been timed to depart after 4:29).

I cannot see how "which arrive at, or depart from; any London Terminal" could be taken to refer to the timetable and not when the train arrives/departs.

 

[MikeWh]

I cannot see how "which arrive at, or depart from; any London Terminal" could be taken to refer to the timetable and not when the train arrives/departs.

Especially if the PIS is showing times after each station name without specifying what those times are.

 

[XmaX]

I would say this makes it fairly unambiguously valid!

If we break the sentence down:

Not valid on trains [timed to depart after 04:29] [which arrive at, or depart from; any London Terminal, Farringdon, or Kensington Olympia before 10:00]

So it's not valid on a train which arrives at a London Terminal before 10:00 (provided that said train had been timed to depart after 4:29).

I cannot see how "which arrive at, or depart from; any London Terminal" could be taken to refer to the timetable and not when the train arrives/departs.

I agree, this wording is fairly clear to me - it's the actual arrival that matters. But... this works both ways then - what if a train scheduled to arrive London at 1000 (and such a train actually exists) is 1 minute early? That technically makes an off-peak ticket not valid on this service (although I doubt there's any way to enforce it).

Would need to know the specific ticket.

Basically you get two wordings, either:
"Not valid on trains timed to/scheduled to depart/arrive..."
or:
"Not valid on trains departing/arriving..."

The former is on the timetabled time, the latter would also allow a delayed train delayed past the restriction.



I'd be astonished if that was true. That only happens at stations with a very, very frequent service where no Advances are offered, e.g. Clapham Jn towards Waterloo and Victoria.

Edit: if you mean the ones on the right on the calling points, those are indeed only expected times at all stations, but they're relatively new anyway as a helpful guide. You need to refer to the actual timetable, either on paper or online, if in doubt.

I checked - in Cambridge, the delayed services only show the revised (ie. expected) calling times, not the originally scheduled ones. Unless you know the schedule, there's therefore no easy way of knowing what was the scheduled arrival time into London. I'm assuming it's the same at all GA-managed stations which use same departure boards.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I checked - in Cambridge, the delayed services only show the revised (ie. expected) calling times, not the originally scheduled ones. Unless you know the schedule, there's therefore no easy way of knowing what was the scheduled arrival time into London. I'm assuming it's the same at all GA-managed stations which use same departure boards.

I've never been in this position, but I'd be surprised if they didn't butt in with a manual announcement saying it's a peak only train for those going to London. Or if it's not busy they'd just let it go.

Those calling point times are quite new, and these restrictions have applied since long before they were even a thing.

 

[XmaX]

I've never been in this position, but I'd be surprised if they didn't butt in with a manual announcement saying it's a peak only train for those going to London. Or if it's not busy they'd just let it go.

Those calling point times are quite new, and these restrictions have applied since long before they were even a thing.

Given how little the gate staff in Cambridge seem to know about peak/off-peak restrictions, I doubt they'd do anything.

A few days ago, I wanted to board the 8:47 to Liverpool Street, scheduled to arrive at 10:15 with an off-peak ticket. Gate didn't open, and a staff member said it's still peak time and I'm not allowed through. I had to explain the rules to him before he reluctantly let me through.

 

[Kilopylae]

But... this works both ways then - what if a train scheduled to arrive London at 1000 (and such a train actually exists) is 1 minute early? That technically makes an off-peak ticket not valid on this service (although I doubt there's any way to enforce it).

I think as a passenger you are entitled to take the railway's word for it that the train will run when it says it does. You cannot be penalised for their error.

 

[mangyiscute]

it happens quite often at Reading that a Paddington train is delayed past 09:30 (which is the time at which off peak starts - on this line its done on when it leaves reading rather than when it arrives into paddington from what I remember) and if it just a couple minutes late for example at 09:31 then they won't let anyone with an off-peak time ticket take it. I've never seen one that's like an hour late at 10:15 so it is a peak train but solidly into off peak time but I assume they'd just let anyone take it. However, Reading also has TfL contactless which is entirely done on when you tap in, and due to the 3 minute grace period any tap at 09:27 or later is off peak. Therefore, when the 09:26 was delayed until 09:29 before, I waited at the barriers until 09:27 before tapping in and then I got on this 'peak' train with an 'off-peak' fare.

 

[ThisIsSurbiton]

what if a train scheduled to arrive London at 1000 (and such a train actually exists) is 1 minute early? That technically makes an off-peak ticket not valid on this service

It's still timed to arrive at 1000. The real restriction data does make this distinction - times can be scheduled or actual. Necessarily, if anyone's ever going to sell a ticket, all are currently 'scheduled'.

 

[Snow1964]

You do get practical problem like this at stations like Raynes Park, Wimbledon, Earlsfield etc where displays have been altered to next train to Waterloo in X minutes, because you have no way of knowing if it is a late running service that was scheduled to arrive before 10:00

I assume if the train can’t be identified then any train is ok, provided you don’t go through exit barriers before 10:00 (so presumably if it got clear run and arrived at 09:58 would have to wait to exit).

However it is unclear to me how the rule being enforced actually works in locations where train identifiers are removed.

 

[MotCO]

Are there similar problems with delays on trains leaving late afternoon? If you have an off-peak ticket and your train is schduled to leave a London terminal at 15.50, but is 20 minutes late leaving (eg Restriction code FP), can you still use your off-peak ticket?

 

[mangyiscute]

I'm unsure about other terminals, but at Paddington the list of peak only trains in the evening is publicised as a list of scheduled trains so this wouldn't be an issue in the afternoon. I think also when leaving London delays to an individual train are a lot less likely, its more likely to be disruption to the whole line.