Orgins & development of the Liverpool - Sheffield - Nottm - Norwich service

[Ken H]

In the days of the printed BR timetable you used to get the international timetable too, with boat trains and connections into Europe.

The last table was the Manchester Victoria - Harwich Parkeston Quay train. It was open to any ticket holder, and you could piece it together in the main timetable. They started changing it at the Manchester end - i think it even went to Glasgow at one point.

It eventually morphed into the Liverpool - Norwich trains we have today

Did anyone ever do this train from end to end. Its one of those things I wish i had done but it had gone before i could.

Think it did Victoria, Hope Valley, not sure if it did Sheffield, Nottingham, Peterborough, Ely then across to Ipswich then Manningtree and Harwich

 

[30907]

Think it did Victoria, Hope Valley, not sure if it did Sheffield, Nottingham, Peterborough, Ely then across to Ipswich then Manningtree and Harwich

The train has a complicated history going back to GER days.
Original route (going north) was the GN&GE Joint line from March to Gainsborough, then the GC via Woodhead to Manchester C and Liverpool C.
It was cut back to Manchester to allow the set to work out and back, and diverted to Piccadilly and via the Hope Valley, both around 1970.
About 1980 it was diverted via Nottingham and then switched to Victoria via Ashburys-Phillips Park and extended to Glasgow and Edinburgh, producing economies but also new travel opportunities. I used it IIRC Ely-Preston, it was a West Coast Mk2 a/c set.
Its last incarnation, after I had left Fenland, was electric hauled via the NLL!

Fairly sure there was an extensive thread or more than one a few years ago.
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/harwich-boat-trains.110515/

 

[Calthrop]

There's a thread, here on "Railway History & Nostalgia", started by me, concerning this topic. I don't know how to do links-to-threads; but it is titled "Lincolnshire to Chester, 60+ years ago" -- started 12 / 12 / 2015.

Although I've never made a rail journey all the way between Manchester and Harwich as such -- neither by the train featured here, nor otherwise -- I have in times past travelled on said train over the great majority of its route; but, "different bits, different times". In childhood in the first half of the 1950s, I -- maternally accompanied -- travelled on this working several times, between Spalding and Manchester: a matter of visiting relations in the Chester area -- taking the most expeditious, though not the "beeline" shortest, way of accomplishing that journey by rail. I started the above-mentioned Dec. 2015 thread in the hope of amplification of the faint and fragmentary direct memories which are all of such that I have, from these journeys when I was a small child.

Some fifteen-odd years later, when living in Peterborough: on the way to / from the Continent, I made once anyway, the journey Peterborough -- Harwich and return -- using the train featured, between March and Harwich; taking connecting workings between Peterborough and March. The one part of our train's route which I never covered on it, was Spalding -- March: which section I travelled over only once, in a "railroving" bout in 1964.

 

[Taunton]

I used it "all the way" twice when returning from Interrailing in Europe in the 1970s. Class 47 and Mk 1. It was an efficient diagram starting from Harwich connecting with the overnight boat, and returning there in the evening for the return. It loaded to an extent at Harwich, but really filled up at Peterborough, all seats taken. Notably, compared to it's long-traditional route via Spalding and Woodhead, it was diverted for a substantial amount of its journey, all the way from March to Manchester, through some more worthwhile points. It served Piccadilly, not Victoria in Manchester, but I believe it was diverted through the latter when it was extended for a while to Glasgow.

By then it was running via Peterborough and Nottingham. It was certainly running via Nottingham by summer 1972.

Before about 1965 it ran via Woodhead, then round the south side of Manchester to Central station and then reversed to Liverpool Central. My first sight of it was there at Liverpool, likely in that last year, with surprisingly a Trafford Park Britannia at the head, which can't have been going further than Manchester.

 

[daodao]

The train has a complicated history going back to GER days.
Original route (going north) was the GN&GE Joint line from March to Gainsborough, then the GC via Woodhead to Manchester C and Liverpool C.
It was cut back to Manchester to allow the set to work out and back, and diverted to Piccadilly and via the Hope Valley, both around 1970.
About 1980 it was diverted via Nottingham and then switched to Victoria via Ashburys-Phillips Park and extended to Glasgow and Edinburgh, producing economies but also new travel opportunities. I used it IIRC Ely-Preston, it was a West Coast Mk2 a/c set.
Its last incarnation, after I had left Fenland, was electric hauled via the NLL!

Fairly sure there was an extensive thread or more than one a few years ago.
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/harwich-boat-trains.110515/

I travelled on the North Country Continental (its unofficial name) once, shortly before the Woodhead line closed, from Sheffield Victoria to M/c Piccadilly. It was (unexpectedly) diesel-hauled over this section, but still carried a restaurant car. It was diverted to Piccadilly following the closure of M/c Central in 1969. At that time, it was still running on the original route via Lincoln Central and Spalding, but not Gainsborough.

Following the closure of the Woodhead line to passenger traffic, it was diverted to run via Bredbury and the Hope Valley line, reversing at Sheffield Midland and then running via Nottingham/Grantham/Peterborough to rejoin the historic route at March. I have a BR publicity leaflet for the service from 1974 - I used it several times in 1973-6 to travel from M/c to Ely, where I changed for Cambridge.

At one time in the early years of the 20th century, there was a separate portion for M/c Victoria and Liverpool Exchange that ran via Doncaster and Pontefract and then via the L&Y line.

 

[70014IronDuke]

I've been wondering how this service developed, as I was kind of 'out of circulation' when this all started up c 1988-89. It all seems simple and logical now (well, apart from whether it should be split at Nottingham). At least there appears to be no question over the need for such a service, even if split.

But back in the 1960s & 70s, as I remember things, there was just one train that worked from Manchester to Harwich PQ - and that was it. This later morphed into "The European" which for some time into the 80s continued over the same route from Manchester Vic, before being routed via London. (I might have got that back to front - but I remember seeing it at Chesterfield behind a Cl 47 around 17.00? in 1985.) But that was it: just the one (long) train per day.

My questions: how did it develop to what we got by 1990? Did it suddenly jump from one LH train a day to a dozen or so sprinter services in one fell swoop, or was it more gradual?
Who was behind it, and how did they justify what must have seemed at the time a radical and perhaps risky change? Was it controversial a the time - ie, was there a faction(s) both within BR and the railway press who claimed it would never work? And in the beginning, did the initial results in terms of loadings prove below or above the expected numbers?

 

[30907]

I've been wondering how this service developed.

My questions: how did it develop to what we got by 1990? Did it suddenly jump from one LH train a day to a dozen or so sprinter services in one fell swoop, or was it more gradual?
Who was behind it, and how did they justify what must have seemed at the time a radical and perhaps risky change? Was it controversial a the time - ie, was there a faction(s) both within BR and the railway press who claimed it would never work? And in the beginning, did the initial results in terms of loadings prove below or above the expected numbers?

It was a gradual but surprisingly quick process. I'd need to check some timetables to be sure of the detail, but IIRC as late as 1984, when I moved away from East Anglia, nothing much had changed from the traditional pattern.

Essentially, Provincial later RR found themselves with sundry 31s and Mk1s, poorly utilised on trains such as the lunchtime Parkeston-Peterborough (which was essentially a parcels train). Traditional parcels and mail traffic was declining anyway. Meanwhile there was a need to replace DMUs on "fast" regional services.
Intercity XC were also IIRC cutting back on non-Birmingham routes.

The East Anglia - NW routes started by repurposing some of these locos , crews and stock to create a couple of 31+4 diagrams with a variety of origins and destinations. ISTR there were at first only 2-3 extra trains over the Ely- Sheffield "core," but that grew the market and....

 

[mp01]

In the early 80s I recall "The Scotch", which set out from Nottingham at around 0730 via Manchester and WCML to Glasgow and Edinburgh, arriving back around 2130. This was formed typically of around 10-12 Mk2s, split in the usual way at Carstairs etc.

From around 1984 there was a short lived Nottingham to Barrow-in-Furness, usually a class 47 with around half a dozen Mk2abc which ran two or three times a day IIRC, and interestingly went via the "Old Road" between Chesterfield and Sheffield.

 

[yorksrob]

From around 1984 there was a short lived Nottingham to Barrow-in-Furness, usually a class 47 with around half a dozen Mk2abc which ran two or three times a day IIRC, and interestingly went via the "Old Road" between Chesterfield and Sheffield.

I suppose it would have enabled it to take Sheffield and the Hope valley without reversing !

 

[30907]

In the early 80s I recall "The Scotch", which set out from Nottingham at around 0730 via Manchester and WCML to Glasgow and Edinburgh, arriving back around 2130. This was formed typically of around 10-12 Mk2s, split in the usual way at Carstairs etc.

From around 1984 there was a short lived Nottingham to Barrow-in-Furness, usually a class 47 with around half a dozen Mk2abc which ran two or three times a day IIRC, and interestingly went via the "Old Road" between Chesterfield and Sheffield.

The Nottingham GlasBurgh was a response to the loss of the Thames Clyde using stock in marginal time.
I should have mentioned that the Continental had switched to the Nottingham route in the 70s, with a DMU from Ely covering the Retford route.
There were a few Mk 1 short sets on the West Coast as well which made destinations like Barrow and Blackpool logical for the Nottingham route.

 

[30907]

I suppose it would have enabled it to take Sheffield and the Hope valley without reversing !

Yes, ISTR the Continental did that even after it diverted via Notts.

 

[eastwestdivide]

Worth a mention of the "other" predecessor of the Norwich services, i.e. the Norwich-Birmingham services via Ely curve, Leicester, Nuneaton, maybe 5-6 services a day. 31s with Mk1s/early Mk2s, steam heat to about 1981 ish, then electric heat.
When did Norwich lose its Birmingham services?

 

[Ken H]

In the early 80s I recall "The Scotch", which set out from Nottingham at around 0730 via Manchester and WCML to Glasgow and Edinburgh, arriving back around 2130. This was formed typically of around 10-12 Mk2s, split in the usual way at Carstairs etc.

From around 1984 there was a short lived Nottingham to Barrow-in-Furness, usually a class 47 with around half a dozen Mk2abc which ran two or three times a day IIRC, and interestingly went via the "Old Road" between Chesterfield and Sheffield.

was this BR trying to convince everyone we didnt need the Settle/Carlisle?

 

[Taunton]

Yes, ISTR the Continental did that even after it diverted via Notts.

When I was taking the Continental in the 1970s it went into Sheffield the normal way and reversed.

 

[70014IronDuke]

In the early 80s I recall "The Scotch", which set out from Nottingham at around 0730 via Manchester and WCML to Glasgow and Edinburgh, arriving back around 2130. This was formed typically of around 10-12 Mk2s, split in the usual way at Carstairs etc.

From around 1984 there was a short lived Nottingham to Barrow-in-Furness, usually a class 47 with around half a dozen Mk2abc which ran two or three times a day IIRC, and interestingly went via the "Old Road" between Chesterfield and Sheffield.

Glad you mentioned the Barrow train - I was sure that I'd seen that in the timetable, but nobody ever seems to mention it, so I thought I'd been seeing things.

However, I wanted to concentrate on the new service, with sprinters, and how that developed, which is why I started a new thread (although I hadn't realised the historical thread had been so recent). Somebody merged my new thread with the old one yesterday.
The service started in 1988-89 was really pretty radical, certainly compared to 1985 or so, and I'd like to know more about how that all developed.

 

[edwin_m]

On Sprinterisation in 1988 this service group was increased in frequency but still served a wide range of destinations. I commuted from Nottingham to Derby on a morning train originating in Ipswich (I think) and heading for Blackpool, and there were other one-off train services. There was also something called the Lorelei, which replaced the middle part of the Harwich service after re-routeing (as the European) via North London.

I don't recall exactly when this was tidied up into regular hourly Liverpool-Norwich and Birmingham-Stansted, but I would guess before privatisation (simply because it would have been difficult to change later).

 

[AJM580]

Prior to 1988 the main loco hauled services in East Anglia cross country were:

Norwich - Birmingham via Ely Curve - Class 31/4
Harwich - Manchester (Glasgow extension 1983 - 1987) - Cl 47
Cambridge - Blackpool (1985 - 1988) - Cl 47

Assorted services ran from Cambridge & Ipswich - Peterborough & Birmingham with 31s

All went over to Class 156 operation in May 1988, although as delivery of the initial 29 units allocated (156401 - 156429) was delayed, some services were worked by Class 150/1 & Class 150/2

The original pattern from May 1988 saw services from Norwich serve alternate destinations of Birmingham & Liverpool, as did services from Ipswich & Cambridge. By 1995 this had come to an end as all Cambridge services went to Birmingham, although in the early 2000s services to Birmingham were extended to Liverpool via Wolverhampton, Stafford and Crewe. This lasted until 2005 (I believe) then with the split up of the franchises in Nov 2007, Cross Country took over Cambridge/Birmingham and East Midlands took Norwich/Liverpool. This also saw the end of class 170/1 & 170/5 units working to Norwich as they were all allocated to Cross Country operations, leaving the 158s to do Norwich - Liverpool.

I think some of the dates could be open to correction as I based them on my haulage records, but certainly May 1988 was the date it all changed as I remember that the 155s also took over the Cardiff - Portsmouths and Crewe - Cardiffs at the same time