Ormskirk and Kirkby line history: why electrification ended at these locations

[Ken H]

Moderator note: split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...the-mayor-of-greater-manchester.175416/page-2

We also see stupid things like passengers having to change trains at Kirkby and Ormskirk just because of a poltical boundary.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

We also see stupid things like passengers having to change trains at Kirkby and Ormskirk just because of a poltical boundary.

Does it not occur to you that those two stations are both stations where the 3rd rail electric Merseyrail franchise ends and the National Rail Northern franchise begins.

 

[Starmill]

Does it not occur to you that those two stations are both stations where the 3rd rail electric Merseyrail franchise ends and the National Rail Northern franchise begins.

You say it almost as if Merseyrail isn't part if National Rail

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

You say it almost as if Merseyrail isn't part if National Rail

In my usual less-than-knowledgeable use of railway terminology, I was trying to say where a third-rail electric system ends and a non-electrified system commences...

 

[furnessvale]

In my usual less-than-knowledgeable use of railway terminology, I was trying to say where a third-rail electric system ends and a non-electrified system commences...

Yes, but I think what Ken H was saying is "why does the 3rd rail end at those locations?" Answer, because it is a political boundary.

 

[geoffk]

Yes, but I think what Ken H was saying is "why does the 3rd rail end at those locations?" Answer, because it is a political boundary.

The L&YR electrified to Ormskirk in 1913 and it must have seemed logical to sever the line there in 1970 when through services to Preston were diverted, as electrification further north was not then justified. The line to Wigan was severed at Kirkby at 1977 when electrification reached Kirkby, the end of the built up area, and yes a political boundary.

 

[Greybeard33]

Arguably the Greater Manchester suburban network would be more efficient, more reliable and less polluting if, like Merseyrail, use of the electrification infrastructure were maximised, rather than running diesels under the wires into the centre of Manchester. For example, interchanges from diesel to electric at Guide Bridge, Hazel Grove, Altrincham and, next year, Bolton.

 

[geoffk]

Arguably the Greater Manchester suburban network would be more efficient, more reliable and less polluting if, like Merseyrail, use of the electrification infrastructure were maximised, rather than running diesels under the wires into the centre of Manchester. For example, interchanges from diesel to electric at Guide Bridge, Hazel Grove, Altrincham and, next year, Bolton.

But you've have a lot more folks changing trains and platforms than you have now at Kirkby and Ormskirk.

 

[yorkie]

There is no doubt that it was a sensible decision to electrify at least as far as Ormskirk and Kirkby.

Passengers having to change isn't really an issue, providing the service is reliable and run for the benefit of people and not statistics. Besides there is a large turnover of passengers at Ormskirk anyway; a through train from Liverpool would see most people get off there, and those remaining on would be outnumbered by those boarding there.

I'm not sure electrification could have been justified beyond Ormskirk, but there is perhaps more of an argument to say that the line via Kirkby should have been electrified through to Wigan. But yes the reasons for the electrification ending when they did was related to political boundaries, but not exclusively: it was also linked to passenger demand too.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, but I think what Ken H was saying is "why does the 3rd rail end at those locations?" Answer, because it is a political boundary.

Not true. The political boundary of the Ormskirk line is between Maghull North and Town Green. In the case of the Ormskirk line it’s purely demand - the line goes from urban/suburban to rural there. Kirkby was electrified later and is a political thing.

 

[a_c_skinner]

Passengers having to change isn't really an issue, providing the service is reliable and run for the benefit of people and not statistics.

I honestly don't think that is true, through journeys make a big difference to how people perceive the service.

 

[yorkie]

I honestly don't think that is true, through journeys make a big difference to how people perceive the service.

True but you can do Preston to Liverpool without changing; the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few who make journeys to/from intermediate stations between Sandhills and Croston.

Yes, the rail industry may lose a Rufford to Liverpool or a Preston to Aintree passenger to another mode of transport, but I don't think there is an affordable alternative that offers a good return for the investment.

 

[a_c_skinner]

you can do Preston to Liverpool without changing

Fair answer. Liverpool has always tended to the insular so there may be few people who want to travel from NE Liverpool to Preston.

 

[reb0118]

Historically was this line not the premier route out of Liverpool to Scotland & the North?

 

[Greybeard33]

Considering other Merseyrail terminal/interchange stations, Bidston and Hunts Cross are well short of the political boundary, whereas Ellesmere Port and Chester are way outside.

 

[Bookd]

Going back to the sixties we had holidays visiting an uncle who lived at Ormskirk - probably my last journey on a scheduled steam train was returning there from Liverpool (Exchange) on a train destined for Preston.

 

[jimm]

Moderator note: split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...the-mayor-of-greater-manchester.175416/page-2

We also see stupid things like passengers having to change trains at Kirkby and Ormskirk just because of a poltical boundary.

The decision to electrify from Liverpool to Ormsksirk was made by the directors of the Lancashire & Yorkshire Railway in 1912 as an extension of the route from Liverpool to Aintree that had been electrified in 1906. The reason for initial scheme to Aintree was to combat completion from electric trams. Presumably in the case of Ormskirk there was strong enough flow of commuter traffic into Liverpool to justify the cost of the third rail heading out into the countryside to reach it. So just hard-headed business decisions - nothing whatever to do with political boundaries.

In the case of Kirkby, I believe that the idea of electrifying all the way to Wigan was considered at an early stage when Merseyrail was being planned, as a desirable add-on to the initial scheme, but perhaps not surprisingly, BR decided to spend its money - which there was not all that much of in the mid-1970s, nor was the local PTA flush with funds either - where the bulk of the passengers on the line were, in much the same way as the LYR had done in 1912. And the desirable add-on has yet to happen.

St Helens was also seen as a desirable destination for suburban electric services as part of the Merseyrail project and we all know how long it took for an electric train to get there in the end.

 

[Elecman]

Historically was this line not the premier route out of Liverpool to Scotland & the North?

Certainly was

 

[Bevan Price]

Kirkby was probably seen as a logical terminus for electrification. Traffic potential between Kirkby & Wigan is not huge.
The next station, Rainford is inside the Merseyside area, but the station, formerly Rainford Junction, is poorly situated for most of Rainford village - about one mile from the centre, and has a tiny car park.
Next comes Upholland, the station actually located in Pimbo, which is little more than a row of houses; the main part of Upholland is over a mile away and has no bus service to the station. Also there is very little space to park cars here - no formal car park.
Orrell station is better situated, but Orrell is not huge, and also had a good bus service to/from Wigan. .
Pemberton station is near the edge of that place, and has to compete with fairly frequent buses into Wigan which pass closer to most of the housing & shopping areas of Pemberton.

 

[delt1c]

So where should electrification end? Withe the electrification of WCML where should it have ended, Glasgow, Perth, Inverness or Thurso/Wick, then possibly Fort William as well . There has to boundaries, might not suit everyone but then we just have to learn to live with it

 

[daodao]

Not true. The political boundary of the Ormskirk line is between Maghull North and Town Green. In the case of the Ormskirk line it’s purely demand - the line goes from urban/suburban to rural there. Kirkby was electrified later and is a political thing.

Originally, the L&Y Rly only electrified the line from Liverpool Exchange to Maghull, with only some trains running to Maghull and the others terminating at Aintree. There was a steam railmotor service between Maghull and Ormskirk. It was only later electrified to Ormskirk.

Incidentally, while there have been some extensions of the Merseyrail electrified network since WW2, there have also been closures, in particular Southport to Crossens, and the re-opening of the line from Central on electrification was only as far as Hunt's Cross rather than Gateacre as originally intended.

Limited 3rd rail electrification extensions (if permitted) may be justified not only to Skelmersdale (planned), but also to Gateacre (eminently feasible), Burscough and possibly to Crossens. However, there isn't likely to be enough demand to justify such electrification as far as Preston or Wigan (or Warrington on the line via Hunt's Cross).

The current shambolic service being provided by Northern Fail is likely to lead to a major permanent loss of custom on some diesel routes in NW England with nominally hourly services where trains are now often late or cancelled. These include the Kirby-Wigan and Ormskirk-Preston routes, which would mean the passenger demand to make the case for electrification is weakened.

 

[dvfmlfc]

The major reason electrification ended at Kirkby was based on the political will of the then Merseyside County Council who instructed Merseyside Passenger Transport Executive to ration bus mileage wherever possible. Kirkby was seen to have an overspill of very similar bus routes whose average journey time into the centre of Liverpool was about 50 minutes, when the train took just 17 minutes. Therefore a bus network was devised to terminate most local bus routes to Kirkby station where passengers would continue their journey by the new EMU service to Liverpool Central. A very similar scheme was put into place by MPTE at Waterloo station a few years before.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The major reason electrification ended at Kirkby was based on the political will of the then Merseyside County Council who instructed Merseyside Passenger Transport Executive to ration bus mileage wherever possible. Kirkby was seen to have an overspill of very similar bus routes whose average journey time into the centre of Liverpool was about 50 minutes, when the train took just 17 minutes. Therefore a bus network was devised to terminate most local bus routes to Kirkby station where passengers would continue their journey by the new EMU service to Liverpool Central. A very similar scheme was put into place by MPTE at Waterloo station a few years before.

...and then promptly stuffed up by deregulation.

That said, Merseyrail does have more bus services deliberately set up to connect with trains than say Northern in Manchester does.

 

[dvfmlfc]

...and then promptly stuffed up by deregulation.

That said, Merseyrail does have more bus services deliberately set up to connect with trains than say Northern in Manchester does.

That's very true, MPTE have always had policies in place to connect buses (regulated / deregulated) with trains where possible.

Of course, a half hearted attempt was made to make Kirkby the railhead for Skem about 40 years ago when Ribble services 395/396 were introduced, at the expense of the through running services between Skem and Liverpool, connecting at Kirkby station with trains to and from Liverpool Central. It was a failure because no actual time was saved transferring between bus and train, and soon the original services were reintroduced. Even though Skem is in Lancashire, I suspect this was another MPTE initiative.

 

[frodshamfella]

There is no doubt that it was a sensible decision to electrify at least as far as Ormskirk and Kirkby.

Passengers having to change isn't really an issue, providing the service is reliable and run for the benefit of people and not statistics. Besides there is a large turnover of passengers at Ormskirk anyway; a through train from Liverpool would see most people get off there, and those remaining on would be outnumbered by those boarding there.

I'm not sure electrification could have been justified beyond Ormskirk, but there is perhaps more of an argument to say that the line via Kirkby should have been electrified through to Wigan. But yes the reasons for the electrification ending when they did was related to political boundaries, but not exclusively: it was also linked to passenger demand too.

I have read a lot of cancelled or late trains on the Wigan to Kirby line also.

It is something to my mind that should be sorted out, stopping of services at political boundaries, is a bit daft. The Kirkby train should run to Wigan ( with the much talked about Skelmerdale link too). Often these onward services are not reliable, in fact yesterday I was at Bidston waiting for the well used Wrexham train, ( another route that should be part of the Merseyrail network). We arrive from Liverpool Central on time, the Wrexham train is 10 mins late arriving, then a late departure, on an hourly service.

 

[frodshamfella]

Originally, the L&Y Rly only electrified the line from Liverpool Exchange to Maghull, with only some trains running to Maghull and the others terminating at Aintree. There was a steam railmotor service between Maghull and Ormskirk. It was only later electrified to Ormskirk.

Incidentally, while there have been some extensions of the Merseyrail electrified network since WW2, there have also been closures, in particular Southport to Crossens, and the re-opening of the line from Central on electrification was only as far as Hunt's Cross rather than Gateacre as originally intended.

Limited 3rd rail electrification extensions (if permitted) may be justified not only to Skelmersdale (planned), but also to Gateacre (eminently feasible), Burscough and possibly to Crossens. However, there isn't likely to be enough demand to justify such electrification as far as Preston or Wigan (or Warrington on the line via Hunt's Cross).

The current shambolic service being provided by Northern Fail is likely to lead to a major permanent loss of custom on some diesel routes in NW England with nominally hourly services where trains are now often late or cancelled. These include the Kirby-Wigan and Ormskirk-Preston routes, which would mean the passenger demand to make the case for electrification is weakened.

I just read about Gateacre on the disused stations website, apparently it was a well used station.