Outward journeys not completed in the same day

[shredder1]

What is the ruling on this, as some journeys in the UK can`t be completed in the same day?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

It depends entirely on the ticket type. The outward portion of an Anytime Return is valid until the 04:29 on the sixth day of validity; for the outward portion of a (Super) Off-Peak Single or Return, or Anytime Short Return, it's valid until 04:29 on the third day of validity provided the journey has been commenced on the first day. For the outward portion of an Anytime Single it's valid until 04:29 on the third day of validity regardless of whether the journey was commenced on the first day.

And Advance tickets, AFAIK, have no particular limitation on how many days they can be used over, provided you are travelling in line with your TOC/route restriction and any reserved trains (in practice, it is highly unlikely there are any journeys with Advances available which would fall over more than 2 days).

Anytime and Off-Peak Day Singles and Returns can only be used until 04:29 on the second day of validity. However, there are a limited number of such tickets which, when complying with both the ticket route/TOC restriction and the permitted routes of the ticket, cannot physically be completed within this validity. It is unclear what happens then.

Was there a specific example which you had in mind, or where perhaps it was claimed that the above rules did not exist, or were incorrect?

 

[shredder1]

It depends entirely on the ticket type. The outward portion of an Anytime Return is valid until the 04:29 on the sixth day of validity; for the outward portion of a (Super) Off-Peak Single or Return, or Anytime Short Return, it's valid until 04:29 on the third day of validity provided the journey has been commenced on the first day. For the outward portion of an Anytime Single it's valid until 04:29 on the third day of validity regardless of whether the journey was commenced on the first day.

And Advance tickets, AFAIK, have no particular limitation on how many days they can be used over, provided you are travelling in line with your TOC/route restriction and any reserved trains (in practice, it is highly unlikely there are any journeys with Advances available which would fall over more than 2 days).

Anytime and Off-Peak Day Singles and Returns can only be used until 04:29 on the second day of validity. However, there are a limited number of such tickets which, when complying with both the ticket route/TOC restriction and the permitted routes of the ticket, cannot physically be completed within this validity. It is unclear what happens then.

Was there a specific example which you had in mind, or where perhaps it was claimed that the above rules did not exist, or were incorrect?

Many thanks for the input, appreciated. I tend to travel a lot on friday evenings after work to get me away for the weekends, for example last weekend I travelled from Manchester to Ryde IOW on one return ticket, but the earliest I could arrive was 06.00, had I missed my Waterloo connection, then it would have been 05.00 from Waterloo on the saturday morning. In two weeks time I will be travelling from Manchester to Keith, again on a return ticket, return Monday, leaving Manchester at 19.30 Friday evening and arriving into Keith at 10.30 the next day with a 4 hour wait in Perth through the night, my tickets would only be dated from Friday evenings you see.

 

[Clip]

Many thanks for the input, appreciated. I tend to travel a lot on friday evenings after work to get me away for the weekends, for example last weekend I travelled from Manchester to Ryde IOW on one ticket, but the earliest I could arrive was 06.00, had I missed my Waterloo connection, then it would have been 05.00 from Waterloo on the saturday morning. In two weeks time I will be travelling from Manchester to Keith, leaving Manchester at 19.30 Friday evening and arriving into Keith at 10.30 the next day with a 4 hour wait in Perth through the night, my tickets would only be dated from Friday evenings you see.

I cant find an itinary on nre that replicates this only a 2329 which would actually get you there at 0935 the next day...

 

[mallard]

Note that also (from the NRCoT):

If, as a result of a delay to your train, your Ticket expires during your journey, you will still be allowed to complete that journey without penalty.

This is slightly unfortunately worded, since it seems to exclude circumstances where a train is cancelled rather than just delayed (this probably isn't intentional, but TOCs can and will use any "loophole" of this kind to their advantage), so in circumstances where disruption delays your journey, you should be able to continue without problems (although for most tickets this really only applies to near-24-hour rail services, since other provisions would cover alternative transport or accomodation otherwise).

 

[Muzer]

It depends entirely on the ticket type. The outward portion of an Anytime Return is valid until the 04:29 on the sixth day of validity; for the outward portion of a (Super) Off-Peak Single or Return, or Anytime Short Return, it's valid until 04:29 on the third day of validity provided the journey has been commenced on the first day. For the outward portion of an Anytime Single it's valid until 04:29 on the third day of validity regardless of whether the journey was commenced on the first day.

And Advance tickets, AFAIK, have no particular limitation on how many days they can be used over, provided you are travelling in line with your TOC/route restriction and any reserved trains (in practice, it is highly unlikely there are any journeys with Advances available which would fall over more than 2 days).

Anytime and Off-Peak Day Singles and Returns can only be used until 04:29 on the second day of validity. However, there are a limited number of such tickets which, when complying with both the ticket route/TOC restriction and the permitted routes of the ticket, cannot physically be completed within this validity. It is unclear what happens then.

Was there a specific example which you had in mind, or where perhaps it was claimed that the above rules did not exist, or were incorrect?

I was under the impression that that's NOT true for an anytime short return; its validity is only until 04:29 on the second day.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I was under the impression that that's NOT true for an anytime short return; its validity is only until 04:29 on the second day.

Anytime Short Returns are really just old Off-Peak Returns which used to have an 8A restriction (aka the older Saver), converted into an Anytime ticket so that it's clear they're valid at any time. So I think it's pretty clear the intent is for the same rules of validity to apply.

 

[Muzer]

Anytime Short Returns are really just old Off-Peak Returns which used to have an 8A restriction (aka the older Saver), converted into an Anytime ticket so that it's clear they're valid at any time. So I think it's pretty clear the intent is for the same rules of validity to apply.

I thought they were anytime returns converted into something else because they were worried about people using an anytime return as a season ticket? What's the thing I'm thinking of?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I thought they were anytime returns converted into something else because they were worried about people using an anytime return as a season ticket? What's the thing I'm thinking of?

Well that was also a change made at "simplification", the reduction of days' validity on the outward portion of Anytime Returns, which had previously been valid for a month.

 

[Hadders]

This crops up regularly and clarification was provided by a very helpful forum member who I understand is in an authoritative position on this.

The outward portion of an Off Peak Return is valid until 0429 on day 3 of validity. The decision on whether to break a journey overnight is the passenger’s, there is no requirement to get as far as you can or to be physically unable to complete the journey. Any time restrictions on day 1 also apply to day 2.

That said I would not expect a hassle free journey with certain train companies!

 

[shredder1]

I cant find an itinary on nre that replicates this only a 2329 which would actually get you there at 0935 the next day...

Sorry Clip, heres what I worked out exactly,

Friday 17th August 2018

Manchester Piccadilly, Dep 19.26

Glasgow Central Arr, 22.38

Glasgow Queen Street Dep, 23.37

Saturday 18th August 2018.

Perth Arr, 00.44

Perth Dep, 05.08

Inverness Arr, 07.49

Inverness Dep, 09.03

Keith Arr, 10.16

Note that also (from the NRCoT):



This is slightly unfortunately worded, since it seems to exclude circumstances where a train is cancelled rather than just delayed (this probably isn't intentional, but TOCs can and will use any "loophole" of this kind to their advantage), so in circumstances where disruption delays your journey, you should be able to continue without problems (although for most tickets this really only applies to near-24-hour rail services, since other provisions would cover alternative transport or accomodation otherwise).

This isn't a cancellation or delay though, there are simply no trains through the night and that's how long the journey takes you see.

I was under the impression that that's NOT true for an anytime short return; its validity is only until 04:29 on the second day.

But what happens if you cant complete the journey within that time scale because of a lack of trains ?.

This crops up regularly and clarification was provided by a very helpful forum member who I understand is in an authoritative position on this.

The outward portion of an Off Peak Return is valid until 0429 on day 3 of validity. The decision on whether to break a journey overnight is the passenger’s, there is no requirement to get as far as you can or to be physically unable to complete the journey. Any time restrictions on day 1 also apply to day 2.

That said I would not expect a hassle free journey with certain train companies!

Ah I see, so in theory I could take 3 days to get there on the outward journey, like say buying a return on the last train from Wick and heading for Ryde IOW, or St Ives, Cornwall??

One reason I asked the question was because last Friday evening I bought a ticket from Manchester to Ryde and on the ticket it says from 3rd August 18 until 3 August 18, this was a off peak return bought at 19.30 Friday evening, by the time I was boarding the 05.20 ferry the next morning at Portsmouth, which was the 4th of course, I was questioned about my ticket and had to explain that the last ferry had sailed before I arrived at Portsmouth on the earliest trains I could get after purchasing my ticket in Manchester, they accepted this explaination, but I could see it being an issue with a ticket checker who couldn't work it out though..

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

One reason I asked the question was because last Friday evening I bought a ticket from Manchester to Ryde and on the ticket it says from 3rd August 18 until 3 August 18, this was a off peak return bought at 19.30 Friday evening, by the time I was boarding the 05.20 ferry the next morning at Portsmouth, which was the 4th of course, I was questioned about my ticket and had to explain that the last ferry had sailed before I arrived at Portsmouth on the earliest trains I could get after purchasing my ticket in Manchester, they accepted this explaination, but I could see it being an issue with a ticket checker who couldn't work it out though..

The outward portion of an Off-Peak Return is always incorrectly marked in this way. The marked 'expires' date is always wrong and misleading.

 

[Hadders]

Ah I see, so in theory I could take 3 days to get there on the outward journey, like say buying a return on the last train from Wick and heading for Ryde IOW, or St Ives, Cornwall??

In theory but bear in mind that a ticket dated Friday is valid until 04:29 on Sunday so it's not 3 full days.

 

[shredder1]

In theory but bear in mind that a ticket dated Friday is valid until 04:29 on Sunday so it's not 3 full days.

Ah OK, that would be fine then, thank you.

 

[shredder1]

The outward portion of an Off-Peak Return is always incorrectly marked in this way. The marked 'expires' date is always wrong and misleading.

Oh right, thank you for that.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well that was also a change made at "simplification", the reduction of days' validity on the outward portion of (Super) Off-Peak Returns, which had previously been valid for a month.

You mean Anytimes? (Super) Off Peaks have only ever been until 0429 on day 3 (subject to starting on day one), same as in BR days.

 

[Haywain]

(Super) Off Peaks have only ever been until 0429 on day 3 (subject to starting on day one), same as in BR days.

The expiry at 04:29 is quite recent, prior to that the expiry was earlier.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

You mean Anytimes? (Super) Off Peaks have only ever been until 0429 on day 3 (subject to starting on day one), same as in BR days.

Sorry, yes.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The expiry at 04:29 is quite recent, prior to that the expiry was earlier.

Ah yes, sorry, so it was - 0200? I thought you meant the carry-over to day 3.

 

[Haywain]

Ah yes, sorry, so it was - 0200? I thought you meant the carry-over to day 3.

From memory, the railway day used to finish at 02:00 but there was nothing that explicitly extended validity of Off Peak/Super Off Peak (or Saver/Supersaver before them) to that time on the third day. Rather there was an allowance for continuing a journey on a second day (as now) but no specific time limit.

 

[Bletchleyite]

From memory, the railway day used to finish at 02:00 but there was nothing that explicitly extended validity of Off Peak/Super Off Peak (or Saver/Supersaver before them) to that time on the third day. Rather there was an allowance for continuing a journey on a second day (as now) but no specific time limit.

Now you mention it...wasn't there something about "you can BoJ overnight, but if you do you must restart before 1200 and may have no further BoJs", or somesuch complicated?

 

[Haywain]

Now you mention it...wasn't there something about "you can BoJ overnight, but if you do you must restart before 1200 and may have no further BoJs", or somesuch complicated?

That sounds familiar. Makes you realise that today's unclear wording is still a big improvement.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That sounds familiar. Makes you realise that today's unclear wording is still a big improvement.

Indeed. TBH, I'd modify it further to simply give the outward of a non-Day Single/return half other than Anytime two days (to 0429 on day three) unconditionally and print it on the ticket. I don't think there would be *that* much abuse given that shorter journeys tend to have Day tickets anyway.

 

[lyndhurst25]

The introduction of Anytime Short Returns has produced an anomaly with respect to the number of days that the outward portion is valid. Take a Newcastle to Berwick on Tweed for example:

Anytime Short Return £41 - valid one day out, one month return.
Off Peak Return £29.10 - valid two days out, one month return.

The more expensive ticket has stricter, in terms of the number of days validity, restrictions on use of the outward portion! That surely can't be right?

Remember the Anytime Short Returns were introduced by ATOC/RDG to "give customers increased choice by offering a period Anytime return for use in the peak on short distance flows where traditionally only a Day ticket was available. This then provides both period options for Peak and Off Peak Travel."

In the end that wasn't what they were used for at all...

 

[Haywain]

This is where National Rail Enquiries website falls short of being the resource that RDG would like it to be. The page telling us about ticket type Anytime Short Return states that these are "initially being trialled on journeys between the Doncaster and Leeds areas and will be effective from 1st June 2015 until 31st December 2015". So that's 3 years out of date and they have been introduced quite widely now around the network. There are numerous cases of this all over the site and it just isn't good enough.

The more expensive ticket has stricter, in terms of the number of days validity, restrictions on use of the outward portion! That surely can't be right?

I suppose if it doesn't so what someone needs it to do they could always* obtain a zero-fared change of ticket type excess to the cheaper ticket.

*Subject to general ticket office competence and willingness!

 

[island]

Whatever the rules (and members) may say about using the outbound leg of an off-peak return on the day after its “valid on” date, you can expect potential arguments with staff members and various assorted palaver, particularly if you are choosing to break a journey overnight that could have been done in one day.

Whether that’s fair or not is another matter.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The one exception to that is in Scotland or Cornwall where the Sleepers could have been used, in which case they'll just assume that's what you've done. When I've done Sleeper journeys on that sort of basis with through tickets beyond, I've never been questioned.