Oxford - Banbury (potential, fantasy, services)

[The Ham]

Given the limited number of non XC services between Oxford and Banbury and how busy the XC services are, it got me thinking; would running more GWR services ease pressure on XC services?

The logic is that if there were more alternative services then that could mean that people out to use GWR and then Chiltern services to get to Birmingham rather than just using the XC services as they are on them.

GWR would probably need the services to be semi fast (or at least not one that suits everywhere) so that journey times weren't too dissimilar.

However it could be fairly easy to win in cost ground, as even if ticket prices were the same Group Save could be valid on those services.

Of it was a service that went to Heathrow (once the Western Approach opens) then that could attract more people to use it.

 

[route:oxford]

Yes although, as always, the trouble is with pathing and congestion.

An hourly clockface stopper to Banbury would probably be very welcome - particularly if it included a new station for "Kidlington West & Yarnton"

Maybe fling in a few services a day that extend to Stratford.

I'm minded to say Chiltern rather than GWR, but maybe it's best to keep Banbury-Oxford pricing out of the hands of Arriva/DB.

 

[30907]

Sorry, I dont see this happening.

The XC services run about 10 minutes ahead of CT northbound and behind southbound, so realistically a GW service would not be able to fit between them. A 15 minute plus wait at Banbury would be a serious disadvantage for through travel, and I can't see a recast timetable being on the cards.

The route is very busy with freight, and I imagine paths north of Aynho are at a premium.

If by some chance a regular path could be found, running (London-)Oxford-Stratford might be worth it, but you would need to cover the local Cherwell Valley stops. route: oxford has made the point well.

PS I think autocorrect has done things to the original post.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

Oxford Parkway has pretty much killed all hopes of a Kidlington North/West station, I think.

 

[The Ham]

Yes although, as always, the trouble is with pathing and congestion.

An hourly clockface stopper to Banbury would probably be very welcome - particularly if it included a new station for "Kidlington West & Yarnton"

Maybe fling in a few services a day that extend to Stratford.

I'm minded to say Chiltern rather than GWR, but maybe it's best to keep Banbury-Oxford pricing out of the hands of Arriva/DB.

Chiltern could make sense in that they could either extend their Oxford service to run up to Banbury after arriving at Oxford or could (if there is a suitable gap) use the same platform at Oxford.

The other advantage is that the could offer Chiltern only tickets from Oxford to Birmingham which would likely be cheaper.

From what I've seen there's a reasonable route of passengers that get on at Oxford and off again at Banbury or on at Banbury and off again at Oxford. That would mean that there was less need for through services towards Birmingham.

The other advantage is that when something messes up XC services it would mean that there's an alternative option.

 

[Darkinsider]

deleted

 

[swt_passenger]

Aren't there supposed to be a couple of extra Oxford - Banbury services each way in the franchise SLC2? Was supposed to start May 17, but it is all delayed for 6 months, and with the electrification boundary being at Didcot, there'll now be some Banbury - Didcot peak services?

The latter might change passenger options as they'll apparently connect into fast services at Didcot...

 

[jimm]

Given the limited number of non XC services between Oxford and Banbury and how busy the XC services are, it got me thinking; would running more GWR services ease pressure on XC services?

The logic is that if there were more alternative services then that could mean that people out to use GWR and then Chiltern services to get to Birmingham rather than just using the XC services as they are on them.

GWR would probably need the services to be semi fast (or at least not one that suits everywhere) so that journey times weren't too dissimilar.

However it could be fairly easy to win in cost ground, as even if ticket prices were the same Group Save could be valid on those services.

Of it was a service that went to Heathrow (once the Western Approach opens) then that could attract more people to use it.

What is needed are longer XC trains - the same as in so many other places around the country.

30907 has pointed out there is a lot of freight and pathing it all the way from Birmingham/Leamington to Didcot is quite a challenge already. GWR or anyone else taking up more paths between Oxford and Banbury wouldn't help and the existing GWR services outside the peak aren't exactly over-run with passengers from/to Banbury, never mind the intermediate stops.

 

[nw1]

What is needed are longer XC trains - the same as in so many other places around the country.

30907 has pointed out there is a lot of freight and pathing it all the way from Birmingham/Leamington to Didcot is quite a challenge already. GWR or anyone else taking up more paths between Oxford and Banbury wouldn't help and the existing GWR services outside the peak aren't exactly over-run with passengers from/to Banbury, never mind the intermediate stops.

In a fantasy world where one company runs all the trains in the Oxford-Banbury-Leamington corridor, and loads of stock is available, I can see that overcrowding could be relieved without adding to congestion by:

- the Bournemouth-Manchester being 10 or 12 coaches;
- one of the Paddington-Oxford trains being extended to New Street (and beyond), again with 10-12 coaches, on the opposite half hour to the Bournemouth;
- 'Chiltern' trains to Birmingham being reduced to hourly (on the opposite half hour to the above), lengthened, with the above Paddington to New Street maintaining a half-hourly Banbury and Leamington to London service. The other 'Chiltern' service would terminate Banbury.

Not possible in the current setup of course, but I've always wondered whether having one TOC and more stock would be the most important factor in reducing overcrowding while not adding to congestion.

 

[67018]

In a fantasy world where one company runs all the trains in the Oxford-Banbury-Leamington corridor, and loads of stock is available, I can see that overcrowding could be relieved without adding to congestion by:

- the Bournemouth-Manchester being 10 or 12 coaches;
- one of the Paddington-Oxford trains being extended to New Street (and beyond), again with 10-12 coaches, on the opposite half hour to the Bournemouth;
- 'Chiltern' trains to Birmingham being reduced to hourly (on the opposite half hour to the above), lengthened, with the above Paddington to New Street maintaining a half-hourly Banbury and Leamington to London service. The other 'Chiltern' service would terminate Banbury.

Not possible in the current setup of course, but I've always wondered whether having one TOC and more stock would be the most important factor in reducing overcrowding while not adding to congestion.

I can't imagine it would be popular to cut the Chiltern service to Birmingham, which seems to have been very successful, in favour of a slower and more indirect service via Oxford.

Not really sure what need would be met by a Paddington-Oxford-New Street service that would justify the impact on capacity/paths on Chiltern and WCML, not to mention the single track section between Leamington and Coventry. The present service looks like it would be perfectly adequate if the trains were long enough!

 

[Tomnot27]

There is also the NEWCASTLE to reading services to fit in

 

[swt_passenger]

There is also the NEWCASTLE to reading services to fit in

Best not to get awkward facts in the way of a crayonista network...

 

[cle]

How about an hourly Stratford to Oxford, pathed right behind a fast train, run by Chiltern. Connecting to/from fast London train at Leamington.

Could eventually be the Science Park service...

 

[jimm]

How about an hourly Stratford to Oxford, pathed right behind a fast train, run by Chiltern. Connecting to/from fast London train at Leamington.

Could eventually be the Science Park service...

Chiltern already regards serving Stratford as a tedious distraction from making money in Oxfordshire and the West Midlands. I can't believe they would have the slightest interest in anything of the sort.

A far more likely prospect would be a limited number of GWR services extended from/back to Oxford, as mentioned above - as used to happen in the past and got a mention as a possibility for reintroduction in the last failed GW franchise bidding round - but such a service would have its focus as serving the London-Oxford-Stratford tourist market, with any boost in capacity for Oxford-Banbury a side-effect, not a core reason for such a service, which wouldn't necessarily tie in with time of peak demand anyway.

 

[yorksrob]

I remember sitting on the floor in vestibules between Birmingham and Reading during the early noughties and thinking exactly the same thing - "shame they can't have a local Reading - Birmingham service to relieve the InterCity".

Evidently nothing much has changed (other than the rolling stock).

 

[The Ham]

Chiltern already regards serving Stratford as a tedious distraction from making money in Oxfordshire and the West Midlands. I can't believe they would have the slightest interest in anything of the sort.

A far more likely prospect would be a limited number of GWR services extended from/back to Oxford, as mentioned above - as used to happen in the past and got a mention as a possibility for reintroduction in the last failed GW franchise bidding round - but such a service would have its focus as serving the London-Oxford-Stratford tourist market, with any boost in capacity for Oxford-Banbury a side-effect, not a core reason for such a service, which wouldn't necessarily tie in with time of peak demand anyway.

Whatever the reason and wherever it ran to/from wasn't restricted to just Oxford Banbury that was just the starting point for the discussion.

It's all well and good others saying about the XC services, but they are not always the best at being on time and they are often busy. Yes they should be longer trains, but I wouldn't be surprised if 7 coach trains got filled fairly quickly.

 

[The Ham]

If you extended the XX:50 (ish) From Paddington which terminates at Oxford most hours, except in the evening peak, so that it went on to Banbury then it would be about 15 minutes away from another Banbury train. It would have called at Didcot or could be timetabled to do so (and to a lesser extent Slough) which would mean people from their or places like Swindon who can change there, would be able to head north more easily.

In doing so it would mean that the new service would fill a gap in the timetable and would serve stations which currently don't have a direct service to Banbury.

For the return or would be the XX:01 (ish) with an extra stop at Didcot, which again is about 15 minutes from another XC service heading south.

It shouldn't cause a clash with freight, as both those services head to and from the carriage sidings and are taking up a path south of Oxford.

Also, it could still be useful to allow people from Basingstoke to get to or from Banbury at broadly the same times by using GWR services of the XC services are late (northbound would require being at Basingstoke 10 minutes early, whilst southbound would get you to Basingstoke about 4 minutes early). Which although not ideal and wouldn't really allow you to connect with other services at the Basingstoke end, it cos allow someone to get to/from Birmingham if the XC service is fairly late (say over 15 minutes) or is cancelled.

 

[The Planner]

In normal GW style the Padd Oxford terminator doesn't stick to a pattern and arrives anytime from xx.47 to xx.52. It does tend to have a standard freight path up its backside around 5 minutes later. If you extend that GW to be an all shacks to Banbury then you push that freight out a bit. I reckon you might cause a few problems with the freight and Reading Newcastle around Leamington/Hatton.

 

[The Ham]

In normal GW style the Padd Oxford terminator doesn't stick to a pattern and arrives anytime from xx.47 to xx.52. It does tend to have a standard freight path up its backside around 5 minutes later. If you extend that GW to be an all shacks to Banbury then you push that freight out a bit. I reckon you might cause a few problems with the freight and Reading Newcastle around Leamington/Hatton.

I would suggest that it probably wouldn't be a stopping service, given the numbers of passengers at the intermediate stations.

 

[BanburyBlue]

Personally I'd love to see more GWR interest in Banbury.

Are the paths really that congested? I know there is freight, but the freight traffic doesn't seem that heavy to me?

My personal favourite would be fast services into Paddington (fantasy I know). But I do believe there may be a market for this.

 

[67018]

Personally I'd love to see more GWR interest in Banbury.

Are the paths really that congested? I know there is freight, but the freight traffic doesn't seem that heavy to me?

My personal favourite would be fast services into Paddington (fantasy I know). But I do believe there may be a market for this.

I'm still waiting for someone to come up with a real idea of where the demand is coming from though. Banbury has regular services to Marylebone that take an hour. Why would anyone go via Oxford which would take 20 minutes longer?

Similarly I don't see hordes of people wanting to go Didcot - Banbury, and if there are the journey is pretty easy with a same platform change at Oxford.

The best bet looks like London-Oxford-Stratford trains for the tourist market and filling the gap left by Chiltern not being too bothered with Stratford.

Although a better use of capacity will be East-West trains to Reading if and when that ever happens.

 

[BanburyBlue]

I'm still waiting for someone to come up with a real idea of where the demand is coming from though. Banbury has regular services to Marylebone that take an hour. Why would anyone go via Oxford which would take 20 minutes longer?

Similarly I don't see hordes of people wanting to go Didcot - Banbury, and if there are the journey is pretty easy with a same platform change at Oxford.

The best bet looks like London-Oxford-Stratford trains for the tourist market and filling the gap left by Chiltern not being too bothered with Stratford.

Although a better use of capacity will be East-West trains to Reading if and when that ever happens.

20 minutes is not that long, and I wonder if the better connections offered by London Underground would suit some people?

And considering how often I have to stand on services down the Thames/Cherwell Valley, I would say the demand is there.

And wouldn't some competition be good?

 

[67018]

20 minutes is not that long, and I wonder if the better connections offered by London Underground would suit some people?

And considering how often I have to stand on services down the Thames/Cherwell Valley, I would say the demand is there.

And wouldn't some competition be good?

20 minutes is quite a long time on a 60 minute journey - Chiltern spent a fortune on the Evergreen programme to save less than that. And the tube links from Paddington are no better than Marylebone/Baker Street unless you are going toward Earls Court. I suspect Banbury-Marylebone-Paddington via Bakerloo line would be quicker than a train via Oxford.

Isnt having to stand more down to insufficient stock? I agree trains definitely need to be longer.

I can't see that competition would be useful unless the slower service was significantly cheaper.

 

[jimm]

Personally I'd love to see more GWR interest in Banbury.

Are the paths really that congested? I know there is freight, but the freight traffic doesn't seem that heavy to me?

My personal favourite would be fast services into Paddington (fantasy I know). But I do believe there may be a market for this.

If GWR thought there was a market, don't you think they might already have done something to cash in on it?

There hasn't been anything stopping them asking for more paths to Banbury but they have been rather keener on extending services past Oxford up the Cotswold Line for a good few years now - presumably because they do see a worthwhile market there.

 

[150219]

Are the paths really that congested? I know there is freight, but the freight traffic doesn't seem that heavy to me?

Well you'd be surprised how difficult it is to slot an additional train through from Banbury to Didcot. Whilst there might be an additional slot between Aynho and Wolvercot Junction and again between Hinksey and Didcot, it's tough getting something that pieces together.

 

[The Ham]

I'm still waiting for someone to come up with a real idea of where the demand is coming from though. Banbury has regular services to Marylebone that take an hour. Why would anyone go via Oxford which would take 20 minutes longer?

Similarly I don't see hordes of people wanting to go Didcot - Banbury, and if there are the journey is pretty easy with a same platform change at Oxford.

The best bet looks like London-Oxford-Stratford trains for the tourist market and filling the gap left by Chiltern not being too bothered with Stratford.

Although a better use of capacity will be East-West trains to Reading if and when that ever happens.

Connections to London would be for passengers to Oxford, Banbury would only really be for stations along the route.

 

[anti-pacer]

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't there used to a direct Oxford to Bristol service in the 90's?

 

[route:oxford]

I'm still waiting for someone to come up with a real idea of where the demand is coming from though.

The sheer volume of jobs in Oxford.

Sadly, much of that demand can't be met by rail at the moment, but if anything ever runs through to the Science Park or Garsington Road/Horspath - it'll be rammed from day one.

There is also the gradual winding down of the Horton Hospital with clinics shifting to Oxford.

 

[route:oxford]

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't there used to a direct Oxford to Bristol service in the 90's?

Yes, awful.

2 coach 165, change direction at Didcot rather than use the curve. Absolutely rammed with tourists going to Bath.

Did it once, was on the HST and changed at Didcot on the way back.

 

[cle]

Possibly a E/W, and one day electrified route (via the curve) might be appealing one day - for example from Bristol and Bath to Nottingham or even Cambridge, via Oxford.