Oxford - London Z1-6 valid via Basingstoke?

[Fermiboson]

The routeing guide gives Oxford to London Group valid via GC, LH, WX+RB.

GC is the Chiltern mainline, LH is the normal GWR service via Reading. WX is SWR to Woking, and SWR to Reading via Staines, and RB is Basingstoke and Guildford etc. via XC to B'ham. So the valid routes are the Chiltern direct, or Oxford - Reading by GWR/XC and Reading to London by GWR/SWR.

Yet, if I go on the forum site and set Oxford to London Travelcard Z1-6 via Basingstoke (i.e. GWR/XC to Basingstoke then SWR via Farnborough into London), the forum simply offers me the normal travelcard, without any splits. Why is this?

 

[Adam Williams]

Interesting. Will need some investigation

 

[Fermiboson]

If it's of any interest, setting via Guildford will cause a split at Wokingham.

 

[mikeb42]

The same is true of Didcot (as in, input a journey from Didcot to Waterloo via Basingstoke and the site will offer a Z1-6 Travelcard). I've used this numerous times and never had any trouble - but then I've never had my ticket checked except at the barrier line at Waterloo and they just assume you've arrived from somewhere within the zones.

Maybe Didcot is a different case, but I did make an amateur attempt to figure it out with the routeing guide and concluded it must be being allowed on more arcane grounds than mapped routes.

I had assumed it's something like, if you're going to the likes of Surbiton or Wimbledon this seems a perfectly sensible route (just an assumption - I've not checked at all). Since you've got a zonal ticket, it then makes no odds if you continue to Waterloo or anywhere else in the zones and don't need to stop at the boundary as that's kind of the point of travelcards from origins outwith the zones.

Hopefully there is some reason why it is actually allowed. It feels much less painful than the seemingly endless tedious slog stopping at every blade of grass on the direct Reading to Waterloo services - even if it's usually only 10 minutes quicker max.

 

[Watershed]

The same is true of Didcot (as in, input a journey from Didcot to Waterloo via Basingstoke and the site will offer a Z1-6 Travelcard). I've used this numerous times and never had any trouble - but then I've never had my ticket checked except at the barrier line at Waterloo and they just assume you've arrived from somewhere within the zones.

Maybe Didcot is a different case, but I did make an amateur attempt to figure it out with the routeing guide and concluded it must be being allowed on more arcane grounds than mapped routes.

I had assumed it's something like, if you're going to the likes of Surbiton or Wimbledon this seems a perfectly sensible route (just an assumption - I've not checked at all). Since you've got a zonal ticket, it then makes no odds if you continue to Waterloo or anywhere else in the zones and don't need to stop at the boundary as that's kind of the point of travelcards from origins outwith the zones.

Hopefully there is some reason why it is actually allowed. It feels much less painful than the seemingly endless tedious slog stopping at every blade of grass on the direct Reading to Waterloo services - even if it's usually only 10 minutes quicker max.

View attachment 156248

It's likely a result of calculating permitted routes to the boundary station for Zone 6. As you say, for travel to Surbiton etc. it's a perfectly reasonable and logical route and even for London it's not unreasonable if you're heading to the City via the "Drain" (Waterloo & City line), or the south side of Zone 1.

The Routeing Guide was updated a few years ago to say that the route to a boundary station for outboundary Travelcards should be the same as a permitted route to London Terminals, but I don't think most booking engines have implemented this.

 

[MrJeeves]

Yet, if I go on the forum site and set Oxford to London Travelcard Z1-6 via Basingstoke (i.e. GWR/XC to Basingstoke then SWR via Farnborough into London), the forum simply offers me the normal travelcard, without any splits. Why is this?

View attachment 156247

Typically this is because the implementation of Travelcard routeing is different to the theoretical rules for online journey planners.

OJPs typically check the route from origin to the "travelcard area" on the journey (first station in the zonal area, as if you're getting off at the first station inside the zone), then cover the rest of the journey through the Travelcard's inherent zonal validity.

You can also see this if you do a search on the forum's site from, say, Brighton to London Zones 1-6 via Dorking. While a ticket to London is not permitted on this circuitous route, a journey to the first station in Zone 6 (Ewell East) is permitted via this route, so the Travelcard is deemed valid.

Edit: Ah, Watershed got in there just before I did!

I may as well explain this journey fully then

In this example, I believe the first station inside the Travelcard zones is Surbiton?

If we consult the routeing guide, the yellow pages give us the following map combinations: LONDON, RE+EU, SM+WV, SM+WX+SU

RE+EU allows (RE) Oxford - Didcot - Reading - Basingstoke - (EU) Farnborough North - Woking - Weybridge - Surbiton, then the onward Travelcard zonal validity provides travel into London Terminals.

 

[Fermiboson]

Typically this is because the implementation of Travelcard routeing is different to the theoretical rules for online journey planners.

OJPs typically check the route from origin to the "travelcard area" on the journey (first station in the zonal area, as if you're getting off at the first station inside the zone), then cover the rest of the journey through the Travelcard's inherent zonal validity.

You can also see this if you do a search on the forum's site from, say, Brighton to London Zones 1-6 via Dorking. While a ticket to London is not permitted on this circuitous route, a journey to the first station in Zone 6 (Ewell East) is permitted via this route, so the Travelcard is deemed valid.

Edit: Ah, Watershed got in there just before I did!

I may as well explain this journey fully then

In this example, I believe the first station inside the Travelcard zones is Surbiton?

If we consult the routeing guide, the yellow pages give us the following map combinations: LONDON, RE+EU, SM+WV, SM+WX+SU

RE+EU allows (RE) Oxford - Didcot - Reading - Basingstoke - (EU) Farnborough North - Woking - Weybridge - Surbiton, then the onward Travelcard zonal validity provides travel into London Terminals.

The problem with this is that the booking engine does not do so for other stations. As an example, Oxford to Ewell East (Z6) is valid via Reading, Guildford and Epsom (forum site itinerary attached below):

Ewell East belongs to routeing groups Epsom, and Sutton London. Oxford to Sutton is LONDON only, and Oxford to Epsom is RB+DK, SM+AR - GWR Reading to Guildford and SWR Guildford via Epsom to London, and Guildford to Epsom via Dorking respectively, so this is a valid route, no problem. However, if you try to set Oxford to London Z1-6 via Guildford or Dorking, it will refuse to give you the single travelcard. EDIT: It doesn't for Guildford, but does for Dorking. For which it goes via Guildford.

 

[MrJeeves]

However, if you try to set Oxford to London Z1-6 via Guildford or Dorking, it will refuse to give you the single travelcard.

Will it?

 

[Fermiboson]

Will it?

View attachment 156272

View attachment 156274

If I set via Guildford, the engine will produce "no itineraries found" error if I turn off split ticketing. If I turn it on, it splits at Wokingham.

 

[MrJeeves]

If I set via Guildford, the engine will produce "no itineraries found" error if I turn off split ticketing. If I turn it on, it splits at Wokingham.

Have you got a search link? It seems to work fine for me.

Oxford > London Travelcard Zones 1-6 - Search Results | RailUK Tickets

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[Fermiboson]

Have you got a search link? It seems to work fine for me.

Oxford > London Travelcard Zones 1-6 - Search Results | RailUK Tickets

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Does this have to do with the railcard? I can't see how it could possibly have to do with the railcard.

 

[MrJeeves]

Oxford > London Travelcard Zones 1-6 - Search Results | RailUK Tickets

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Does this have to do with the railcard? I can't see how it could possibly have to do with the railcard.

Those journeys go Reading - Wokingham - Guildford - Woking - Waterloo, which isn't permitted via maps RB+DK or SM+AR.
You can coerce the journey planner into giving you what I believe you want by setting via points of Guildford and Box Hill & Westhumble.

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[Fermiboson]

Those journeys go Reading - Wokingham - Guildford - Woking - Waterloo, which isn't permitted via maps RB+DK or SM+AR.
You can coerce the journey planner into giving you what I believe you want by setting via points of Guildford and Box Hill & Westhumble.

Oxford > London Travelcard Zones 1-6 - Search Results | RailUK Tickets

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View attachment 156277

While this is true, as noted upthread, the instructions of the NR routeing guide document state:

The route you take between your origin station and the point at which you first cross into the
London zonal area (Zones 1-9) should be the route valid for a journey to ‘London Terminals’,
regardless of the zone(s) to which the ticket is actually valid or the combination of London
Travelcards being used

As I understand it, this means that none of these itineraries via Guildford or Woking or Redhill etc. are actually properly valid, it's just that journey planners have not been updated to reflect this change in the routeing guide, and hence any itinerary you can produce with a booking site will be valid on the basis of the site's journey planner, not on the basis of the routeing guide. So any itinerary that cannot be produced via a booking engine is technically invalid.

The forum ticketing site is fine with via Guildford AND Dorking, but does not seem to want to go via Guildford and Effingham Jct, which is the more direct route to e.g. Sutton.

 

[MrJeeves]

As I understand it, this means that none of these itineraries via Guildford or Woking or Redhill etc. are actually properly valid, it's just that journey planners have not been updated to reflect this change in the routeing guide, and hence any itinerary you can produce with a booking site will be valid on the basis of the site's journey planner, not on the basis of the routeing guide. So any itinerary that cannot be produced via a booking engine is technically invalid.

The forum ticketing site is fine with via Guildford AND Dorking, but does not seem to want to go via Guildford and Effingham Jct, which is the more direct route to e.g. Sutton.

They don't appear to follow the publicly written routeing guide, but are, as you say, valid by nature of being issued by an accredited retailer.

I couldn't say why the forum's site and TrainSplit calculates routes to the boundary instead of to Terminals, but I'm aware that journey planners do have slightly different implementations of the routeing guide (just look at human readable versus electronic restrictions on fares!) so it could always be down to something like that.