Oyster daily cap with a negative balance?

[lightbulb]

Hello all,

I have an Oyster card linked with a Disabled Persons Railcard.

I started today with a negative balance of -10p. Having topped up by £5, I then travelled from St James' Park to Southall (£2.20), then made one bus journey (£1.45), leaving a balance of £1.25.

I now wish to make two further bus journeys tonight. The daily cap for Zones 1-4 is £5.10. The first bus will put me into a negative balance of -20p, but will also reach the daily cap. Normally, when going into a negative balance, I would not be able to travel again until I had topped up.

My question is this: does a negative balance negate the daily cap? If it doesn't, as I will have reached the daily cap on my next bus journey will I be able to travel "free" for the rest of the day, as I would if my balance was positive?

 

[yorkie]

MikeWh will know the answer, I bet. But to be 100% safe from prosecution you should add at least 20p to your account.

I have auto top-up enabled, for the avoidance of queuing, delays and hassle... but also for peace of mind!

 

[lightbulb]

MikeWh will know the answer. But to be 100% safe from prosecution you should add at least 20p to your account.

I have auto top-up enabled, for the avoidance of queuing, delays and hassle... but also for peace of mind!

Yes, I would normally do so, but I'd have to go out of my way to get to the nearest station. And I'm curious to see what will happen , but don't want to have to walk back home late at night!
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I don't think prosecution is likely, as if the Oyster is "refused", then of course I'll walk back: it'll be about two miles or so, so not disastrous. If Mike is around, I'm sure he'll know the answer!

 

[bb21]

AFAIK you cannot use your card when you have a negative balance.

Even if you have reached the daily cap, when you start a new journey on LU, the maximum journey charge would still need to be deducted, so with a negative balance, you would not be allowed to start that journey. I would imagine that a similar arrangement applies on the buses.

That said, I could be wrong, and MikeWh is definitely the expert on this.

 

[lightbulb]

Just remembered I have a contactless credit card I can use if necessary, so I won't be walking back!
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AFAIK you cannot use your card when you have a negative balance.

Even if you have reached the daily cap, when you start a new journey on LU, the maximum journey charge would still need to be deducted, so with a negative balance, you would not be allowed to start that journey. I would imagine that a similar arrangement applies on the buses.

That said, I could be wrong, and MikeWh is definitely the expert on this.

As far as I know, it's different on the buses, as you only touch in at the start of the journey, and not at the end, so there's no maximum fare charged, just the flat £1.45 fare.

 

[yorkie]

Yes, I would normally do so, but I'd have to go out of my way to get to the nearest station. And I'm curious to see what will happen , but don't want to have to walk back home late at night!

Another reason to consider auto top-up

If you were a Travelcard holder you'd not be able to use even use that until you topped up. So I expect the same principle will apply. I'd assume you won't be able to board a train with a -20p balance, but you can board one more bus because of this:

One more bus journey to get you home

You can't use cash to pay for your bus fare. If you don't have enough credit on your Oyster card to pay the £1.45 fare or your Bus & Tram Pass or Travelcard has just expired, you can make one more journey on a bus. You must then top up your pay as you go credit to clear the negative balance before you can use your Oyster card again or before you can renew a Travelcard or Bus & Tram Pass. Find out about cash free buses.

source: http://www.tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-payments/oyster/using-your-oyster-card

 

[MikeWh]

Another reason to consider auto top-up

If you were a Travelcard holder you'd not be able to use even use that until you topped up. So I expect the same principle will apply. I'd assume you won't be able to board a train with a -20p balance, but you can board one more bus because of this:
source: http://www.tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-payments/oyster/using-your-oyster-card

The issue here is that he would be starting with a negative balance. My understanding is that one more journey works when you have between zero and £1.45 on your card. It's new though, so I don't know for sure. Further interest comes because the one more journey would also effectively trigger the cap for today. It's the sort of edge case that I'd like to try out when I get the time.

If lightbulb can tell us exactly what happens I'd be very interested.

 

[bb21]

As far as I know, it's different on the buses, as you only touch in at the start of the journey, and not at the end, so there's no maximum fare charged, just the flat £1.45 fare.

I know it is different on buses, what I am not sure about is how the capping mechanism works internally, ie. whether the system deducts the fare and then works out the cap or the other way round. Of course to a passenger, it would not look any different, but in the former case I can see how you may be barred from doing another bus journey even if capped.

As I said, I don't know, and would be interested to find out.

 

[lightbulb]

Hmm. Just boarded the first bus, and it deducted £1.45, and showed 20p remaining. So either my arithmetic in the original post is wrong, or something odd's going on...

 

[MikeWh]

Hmm. Just boarded the first bus, and it deducted £1.45, and showed 20p remaining. So either my arithmetic in the original post is wrong, or something odd's going on...

St James's Park to Southall with railcard is £1.80.

 

[lightbulb]

And have just gone past my stop! Have also realised that the fare from St James Park was 1.80, not 2.20, so I am 20p in credit. But as I'll have to make an extra journey to get to my destination, the next bus will still put me in a negative balance of -20p if the daily cap is calculated correctly...
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MikeWh: how many beeps if the oyster is rejected?
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Now on the second bus. An emergency ticket was issued, as expected.
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Now waiting for the final bus. I've checked my balance on the TfL website, and it shows a balance of -20p, so the daily cap has been applied correctly. Oyster (and contactless card, just in case) at the ready...
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It didn't accept the Oyster card, saying "not enough money" on the reader. Paid by contactless card instead

 

[MikeWh]

Thanks for the update. It's sort of what I expected might happen, though disappointing that a journey which won't increase your debt isn't allowed.