"Passengers travelling from stations on the Greenford branch or Ealing broadway may travel via Slough"

[stevetay3]

This is just a problem of the railway being in a period of transition whereby a new operator has introduced services on the Reading to Paddington route and it has a different fare structure, which some see as highly simplified, charged solely on a point to point basis, but the old fares still exist alongside.

There is a view that government (and railway operator) policy is that the TfL structure will be adopted in the near future on this route but to do so will create some losers as well as winners. There are also practical difficulties about this (Contactless PAYG) being the only fare structure so they have to coexist for a period. A one-off change in December 2019 might not have been acceptable but, to take your point about confusion, it would have been immediate rather than drawn out.

In practice, most regular users learn what is the best value for their journeys and use Contactless or 'paper tickets' depending on which will work best for them. An occasional user might look into what will be best before travelling.

The public is informed about fares on Oyster and Contactless - it is all on TfL's Single Fare Finder.

"NR-NR OSI" means that there is no "out of station interchange" (OSI) between the Network Rail barriers on platforms 10 to 14 and those on platforms 2 to 5. Essentially, that if you use Contactless at Paddington, going through any set of barriers on the mainline station and then another will end the first journey and start a new one. There are very few journeys where someone would travel in and out of Paddington in any case (although I note the point you have raised about there only being 1tph GWR service on the relief line currently).

But if you do not touch the right reader you could end up on a train with no valid ticket and be accused of fair evasion for no fault of your own. I do not think TFL should be operating out to or setting fares to Reading.

You touch IN at your origin and OUT at your destination.

When interchanging, you may need to tap out and back in again.

Routeing Guide easements are not applicable to Contactless/Oyster PAYG; it's a separate system.

We need one fares system, my point all along. The railway is now running as a cash cow for foreign operators and investors and not as a service to the public.

 

[Watershed]

This is all meaninglessness to the average passenger, three or six different fares for the same journey via Slough, Paddington or direct with ticket, oyster or contactless.

There is no way of travelling to Reading with Oyster.

If you use a paper ticket the only available route is "not via London".

Contactless only has one route, the default route. But if you travel via Paddington and touch out at one set of NR barriers, and in at another, you will be charged for two separate journeys.

The choices on this journey really aren't that complicated to be honest.

Why is the public not better informed about all this

TfL want to have PAYG available for all their services.

Paper tickets (or their digital equivalents) won't be eliminated anytime soon along this corridor.

In those circumstances it's difficult how the situation could be made much simpler, other than the addition of a route "+Via London" option for paper tickets. Or extending Oyster to Reading, but that would be very challenging from a technological perspective.

I can now see why people can end up with a criminal record just for getting on the wrong liveried train.

I'm unsure how that has anything to do with the example at hand, where it's simply a case of different ways of paying for your journey?

Yes, people aren't always clearly told that they're buying a ticket restricted to one train (i.e. Advance) or to one company (e.g. GWR only). But that is a separate issue.

Could someone please explain NR-NR OSI at Paddington please.

There are Out of Station Interchanges (OSIs) between certain nearby stations (Paddington NR and Paddington LU are different stations as far as Oyster/contactless is concerned). These mean that two journeys are 'joined up', provided you touch out at one location and in at another, within a given time period.

There is an OSI from Paddington LU to Paddington NR, and vice versa. However there is no OSI from Paddington NR to Paddington NR, meaning that if you exit one set of NR barriers at Paddington and re-enter at another set of barriers, you will be charged for two separate journeys.

 

[stevetay3]

But if you do not touch the right reader you could end up on a train with no valid ticket and be accused of fair evasion for no fault of your own. I do not think TFL should be operating out to or setting fares to Reading.


We need one fares system, my point all along. The railway is now running as a cash cow for foreign operators and investors and not as a service to the public.

I don’t get this may need to tap in, you do or you don’t no may be.

 

[Watershed]

I don’t get this may need to tap in, you do or you don’t no may be.

It's really not that complex - touch in before you start and touch out when you finish. Most of the time the barriers at Ealing and Reading will be closed anyway.

And if you need to go through a barrier during your journey (e.g. to get from Paddington LU to NR), you'll have to touch out and back in there as well. But again, it's not something you could forget to do!

 

[stevetay3]

It's really not that complex - touch in before you start and touch out when you finish. Most of the time the barriers at Ealing and Reading will be closed anyway.

And if you need to go through a barrier during your journey (e.g. to get from Paddington LU to NR), you'll have to touch out and back in there as well. But again, it's not something you could forget to do!

Someone up thread said some barriers at Pad charge different amounts.

 

[AlterEgo]

All seams a bit dodgy to me, if there were an easement non of this would matter.

What do you actually want other than to moan? First an easement causes you a problem, and then the lack of one is “dodgy”. The PAYG rules as @Watershed outlines are extremely relaxed with no prescribed route other than you can’t go out of the PAYG area.

This is all meaninglessness to the average passenger, three or six different fares for the same journey via Slough, Paddington or direct with ticket, oyster or contactless. Why is the public not better informed about all this, I can now see why people can end up with a criminal record just for getting on the wrong liveried train.

Could someone please explain NR-NR OSI at Paddington please.

It is meaningless for the average passenger because things like the RG and easements are coded into booking engines and the average passenger never concerns themselves with looking at the RG! And that’s a good thing.

You should look at air fares one day. They are mind bogglingly complex in many cases yet, you just book a ticket from A to B to C and think nothing of it, because all the rules are written into the website engines that sell you valid tickets.

 

[Watershed]

Someone up thread said some barriers at Pad charge different amounts.

If you travelled from Heathrow, yes. Which you haven't, so it's not an issue.

I really get the feeling you are looking for something to worry about.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

In practice, most regular users learn what is the best value for their journeys and use Contactless or 'paper tickets' depending on which will work best for them. An occasional user might look into what will be best before travelling.

There's also a question of convenience. Using a paper ticket on the branches and contactless on the main line is going to be influenced by how easy or difficult it will be to change from one ticket type to another by touching in or out when changing at Twyford, Maidenhead or Slough.

 

[JonathanH]

Someone up thread said some barriers at Pad charge different amounts.

For one specific journey to one location, Heathrow. Even the platform 6/7 barriers will charge the same amount to anywhere else (ie anywhere apart from Heathrow) as the barriers on other platforms.

 

[stevetay3]

I do not see this as moaning just pointing out rail firms ripping us all off, like all the other privatised industries, if people do not speak out nothing will change we my as well bury all heads in the sand like prime minister does.

As a further example recent trip to Devon would have been over 500 pounds for the two of us we would have got ironing board seats if reservations were applied. Expensive refreshments if trolly appears and a train that may fall apart at any moment. By car cost us 60 pounds petrol add on what you like for ware and servicing it won’t be near 500 quid.

Please do not call this moaning this is fact. I apologise in advance if this is not in the right thread but can’t see how it can be as I started this thread.

For one specific journey to one location, Heathrow. Even the platform 6/7 barriers will charge the same amount to anywhere else (ie anywhere apart from Heathrow) as the barriers on other platforms.

What’s Heathrow got to do with this

 

[WelshBluebird]

There's no NR-NR OSI at Paddington.

I'm pretty sure that

entry @ Ealing Broadway, exit @ Paddington NR, entry @ Paddington NR, exit @ Reading

will be charged as two journeys by contactless.

Conversely, if you enter at Ealing Broadway and travel on the Underground, emerge at Paddington LU, then Paddington NR to Reading, then you'll be charged the only available Ealing -> Reading fare - if you stay within the (unpublished, as noted above) maximum journey time.

I've not really followed the whole thread but to me the above is absolute insanity and is probably the cause of confusion in recent posts. It makes literally zero sense from the passengers pov to have such a policy and in any case most passengers won't even be aware that policy even exists so at least some passengers will just end up paying more than what they need to!

 

[akm]

I've not really followed the whole thread but to me the above is absolute insanity and is probably the cause of confusion in recent posts. It makes literally zero sense from the passengers pov to have such a policy and in any case most passengers won't even be aware that policy even exists so at least some passengers will just end up paying more than what they need to!

My guess is that 0% (to a first-order approximation) of people travelling from Ealing Broadway to Reading are doing either of the things mentioned. Why would you, when there are direct trains??

 

[JonathanH]

I've not really followed the whole thread but to me the above is absolute insanity and is probably the cause of confusion in recent posts. It makes literally zero sense from the passengers pov to have such a policy and in any case most passengers won't even be aware that policy even exists so at least some passengers will just end up paying more than what they need to!

The 'policy' [1] is that passengers from Ealing Broadway to Reading should take a direct train. More than 99% of passengers will do so.

There are some hypothetical discussions in this thread about what might happen if you go via Paddington (which will be well outside the idea of most travellers, not least because going by underground from Ealing Broadway to Paddington via Shepherds Bush, Notting Hill Gate, Hammersmith or Earls Court is incredibly time consuming).

[1] Not really policy, just what over 99% of people do, borne out by the way fares are set.

 

[Horizon22]

Why does anyone realistically need to go via Paddington to get from Ealing to Reading? The 'average punter' certainly wouldn't.

Besides, if you can find a mainline service running from platform 10, you can use Contactless.

Because it can be quicker. The Didcot Parkway terminator is running only hourly at the moment (until December after which its back to 2tph), so you'd have to get a slow TfL service if the connection doesn't work which is essentially all stops (besides W. Ealing & Hanwell) which can take 50 minutes.

Instead (and I have timed this myself as I do the journey semi-regualrly), you take a service to Paddington change at Paddington (which a fit and healthy person could feasibly do in 5 minutes from the higher platforms), and get a 23 minute train for an overall 40 minute journey time. It will be more expensive for the' average punter' yes, but quicker too (and you could use two contactless cards anyway) if you wished. I would say I could do this as rail staff and hence cost is not an issue for me so I am very much an outlier.

There's also the question of going beyond Reading, which again may well be quicker (although you'd need a ticket anyway, so not cheaper).

Are people saying go contactless via Paddington without touching in at Paddington. Is this even allowed?

You could get lucky and arrived on an unbarriered platform at Paddington but if you're on a GWR / TfL relief line service into Paddington from Ealing Broadway that's highly unlikely (and indeed not planned in the timetable). So you'd have to pass through a gateline on 10-14 (or the overbridge) to change.

My guess is that 0% (to a first-order approximation) of people travelling from Ealing Broadway to Reading are doing either of the things mentioned. Why would you, when there are direct trains??

Time savings - for now anyway. After Dec '21 I think its a moot point when it goes back to 2tph Paddington - Didcot PW stopper. Also I'm not super keen on spending 50 minutes on a 345 as it feels a bit soul-crushing!

What’s Heathrow got to do with this

You were the one who asked about barriers charging different amounts. At Paddington 6/7 are Heathrow Express platforms and therefore those barriers are encoded to charge differently. All other platforms (including the standalone readers by P1, 8&9) charge the same. This poses a minor issue at the moment because until Crossrail goes "underground", GWR are having to use Platform 6. Staff normally direct people around to the right place though.

 

[matt_world2004]

Barriers 6 and 7 do not have any OSI iirc because of the hex being a standalone fare

 

[yorkie]

I do not see this as moaning just pointing out rail firms ripping us all off, like all the other privatised industries, if people do not speak out nothing will change we my as well bury all heads in the sand like prime minister does.

I'm up for exposing when people are being ripped off, but there are better ways to go about it, and we need to pick our battles!

As a further example recent trip to Devon would have been over 500 pounds for the two of us we would have got ironing board seats if reservations were applied. Expensive refreshments if trolly appears and a train that may fall apart at any moment. By car cost us 60 pounds petrol add on what you like for ware and servicing it won’t be near 500 quid.

Please create a new thread about this (in either the Fare Advice or Trip Planning sections); please let us know what the journey details are and we will look into it in a separate thread, rather than this one. The first question I would have is whether you have tried Trainsplit. But we need to keep this thread on topic, so please reply in a new thread.

 

[stevetay3]

I'm up for exposing when people are being ripped off, but there are better ways to go about it, and we need to pick our battles!


Please create a new thread about this (in either the Fare Advice or Trip Planning sections); please let us know what the journey details are and we will look into it in a separate thread, rather than this one. The first question I would have is whether you have tried Trainsplit. But we need to keep this thread on topic, so please reply in a new thread.

There is nothing to look into 500 by train anytime 60 by car anytime details in my post above.

 

[Horizon22]

There is nothing to look into 500 by train anytime 60 by car anytime details in my post above.

Only £500 is the absolute maximum charge. I guarantee you could have got it cheaper. Some destination pairs may well be many levels of the car cost, but others may not be. As @yorkie says, create a new thread with some extra details (origin - destination, date, time) and people are will be happy to help look at the best options.

 

[kieron]

As for the original comment on the Birmingham to London Pad route I was merely pointing to the RG as it created this anomaly surely changing at Oxford with a any permitted ticket should be allowed onwards via either route

This isn't to excuse it, but that sort of situation is pretty common for routes which have been created since 1996 (which was when the routeing guide was first devised).

To take another example, someone going from Blackburn to Manchester Airport can't simply catch the next Manchester train because none of the through tickets are valid via Burnley.

"Journeys to or from ... Ealing Broadway ... and West Drayton to Reading and beyond may travel via Slough."

Maybe I'm missing something here, but how else would you possibly do it, other than travel via Slough ?

Is this aimed at journeys like Greenford to Birmingham, where the "shortest route" is via West Ruislip and High Wycombe?

The "category" of any easement changes what the easement means. There's a list of them in the "NRG in details" file, and they determine how web sites interpret the easement. In this case, this is a "Routeing Point" easement. Because of this, it means something along the lines of:

If the Slough routeing point is associated with West Drayton, Slough is an appropriate routeing point for West Drayton for any journey from, to or via Reading.

You would repeat this, replacing West Drayton with each station in that list. There's no point in this case, however, as Slough isn't associated with any of them.

I've underlined a few terms above. If you understand how they fit into the process of working out permitted routes, the easement fits into the same place. If not, I suggest going through the steps in the routeing guide instructions, as it can't really be understood without that context.

It seems to me that the easement is completely irrelevant since the addition of Hayes & Harlington as a routeing point in 2007 (indeed, even Ealing Broadway is a routeing point itself nowadays) and should have been deleted many years ago.

It's not completely irrelevant. It means that a "not via London" ticket from West Drayton to Pontefract Baghill is valid via Birmingham, where one from Iver is only valid on the shortest route via Nuneaton and Tamworth.

 

[Kilopylae]

Why would you, when there are direct trains??

Google Maps transit directions sometimes recommends taking TfL Rail to Paddington and GWR back out to Reading. I assume most people wouldn't question it if they wanted to get to Reading, put that into Google Maps, and got told to take two trains.

 

[miklcct]

Google Maps transit directions sometimes recommends taking TfL Rail to Paddington and GWR back out to Reading. I assume most people wouldn't question it if they wanted to get to Reading, put that into Google Maps, and got told to take two trains.

Google Maps transit directions also sometimes tell me to make a 4-minute connection at a station with 5-minute minimum connecting time as well. I only got that after I failed to obtain an itinerary exactly the same with Google Maps on Trainsplit, and realised that the connection was 4 minutes.

Also, it recommends people to change at Clapham Junction for a Southern service if I start my journey from South Western Main Line which involves crossing London and exiting at Kings Cross to York, which doesn't meet the legal cross-London transfer time as well, with 37 minutes between the arrival into Victoria and departure from Kings Cross, therefore I will not able to obtain an itinerary to match Google Maps suggestion on Trainsplit.

 

[Kilopylae]

It's problematically pants. I can think of several examples of double-backs being suggested that would get you into a trouble if a ticket inspector caught you.