Penalties from Merseyrail despite purchasing tickets

[Sooty2004]

Hi

Does anyone know how to dispute 3 fines for my family?
We purchased 3 returns on the Northern Line app but couldn’t work out why we couldn’t see the tickets.
We regularly travel by train but not with Merseyrail.
There were 2 security guards on the train and the minute the doors shut they began checking tickets.
They hit all 3 of us with a fine of £103 each (reduced to £53 if paid within 2 weeks). Apparently Merseyrail insist you pick the ticket up at the station before travelling…..this is different to every other rail company!
They claimed there were notices all over the train and the station, there weren’t!
Arriving at Liverpool central I was shocked at the number of security staff, it is quite obviously a money making ruthless technique to increase their revenue!!!
Anyone know if it is worth appealing and risking going to court?

 

[gray1404]

Many members will try to assist you, but please bear in mind the following:

• We need to know all relevant facts in order to assist you, including, for example:
  • The stations where you started & finished your journey;
  • The stations where you changed trains (if applicable);
  • If you presented a ticket(s), the information stated under "Ticket type", "From", "To", "Route", and any other relevant details;
  • What happened in any encounter with railway staff;
  • Uploading copies of any paperwork (with personal details redacted) with your post.
• Be careful not to post anything incriminating or personally identifying
• We need to know what outcome(s) you would consider satisfactory

If you are posting regarding a Penalty Fare, MG11, Unpaid Fares Notice, or similar you should also be aware that as part of trying to make sure you are given the most helpful advice possible.

 

[Djgr]

Hi

Does anyone know how to dispute 3 fines for my family?
We purchased 3 returns on the Northern Line app but couldn’t work out why we couldn’t see the tickets.
We regularly travel by train but not with Merseyrail.
There were 2 security guards on the train and the minute the doors shut they began checking tickets.
They hit all 3 of us with a fine of £103 each (reduced to £53 if paid within 2 weeks). Apparently Merseyrail insist you pick the ticket up at the station before travelling…..this is different to every other rail company!
They claimed there were notices all over the train and the station, there weren’t!
Arriving at Liverpool central I was shocked at the number of security staff, it is quite obviously a money making ruthless technique to increase their revenue!!!
Anyone know if it is worth appealing and risking going to court?

Presumably not the Northern Line of Merseyrail, as there is no such app?

 

[CarrotPie]

If you are posting regarding a Penalty Fare, MG11, Unpaid Fares Notice, or similar you should also be aware that as part of trying to make sure you are given the most helpful advice possible.

Is there something missing at the end of that sentence or am I just not reading it properly?

 

[Merseysider]

Apparently Merseyrail insist you pick the ticket up at the station before travelling

Look at your booking (email confirmation or within the app).

If it shows an 8-digit code with the words “ticket on departure” or similar, the staff were correct that it needed collecting from a machine.

 

[Llanigraham]

Hi

Does anyone know how to dispute 3 fines for my family?
We purchased 3 returns on the Northern Line app but couldn’t work out why we couldn’t see the tickets.
We regularly travel by train but not with Merseyrail.
There were 2 security guards on the train and the minute the doors shut they began checking tickets.
They hit all 3 of us with a fine of £103 each (reduced to £53 if paid within 2 weeks). Apparently Merseyrail insist you pick the ticket up at the station before travelling…..this is different to every other rail company!
They claimed there were notices all over the train and the station, there weren’t!
Arriving at Liverpool central I was shocked at the number of security staff, it is quite obviously a money making ruthless technique to increase their revenue!!!
Anyone know if it is worth appealing and risking going to court?

I thought the Regulations, certainly for the national network, stated that you had to have your ticket BEFORE you joined the train, unless there were no facilities provided at the initial station.

 

[furlong]

They claimed there were notices all over the train and the station, there weren’t!

Assuming this was a proper Penalty Fare, you get 3 chances to appeal, and there's nothing to be lost by following the instructions on them and doing so. Most stations don't seem to comply yet with the regulations regarding signage but you'll probably need to write your appeal in a way that covers all the gaps if you want a chance of that succeeding. You'll need to do this separately for each of the 3 penalties they imposed.

Here is an example:

Stansted Airport fines

Went through today. Certainly is another huge poster on the right hand side above the ramp with a few different languages. It's all over the gates too. I wish the OP well with the appeal but I would be very surprised for GA to overturn it given how clear the signage is. Thanks - a few people...

www.railforums.co.uk

(Note that the regulation numbers referred to vary according to whether it's the first, second or third appeal.)

I think that's a good template, obviously giving details of your particular station and Merseyrail not Greater Anglia IF it's the case that the notices there don't comply, and for the second ground giving your own reasons why you say it wasn't made sufficiently clear to you during and after the purchase process how you were required to obtain a physical ticket before boarding.

Also if you upload the a copy of the notice (with personal details/reference number covered up) and give relevant other details of your journey, people can advise if they spot other technical errors.

 

[WesternLancer]

Does the OP @Sooty2004 perhaps mean the tickets were bought on the Northern Trains app (not Merseyrail Northern Line).

Could this be the issue as below (my bolding)? (other threads on here where this crops up including a recent one that I can't find at the no which included a picture of the poster those inspectors referred to, taken by a forum member) - really frustrating for the OP of course.

Penalty Fares

Before travel, you must buy your ticket from a ticket office, ticket vending machine or online.

www.merseyrail.org

A Penalty Fare may be issued if you:

• Travel without a valid ticket.
• Are unable to produce an appropriate Railcard for a discounted ticket.
• Are aged 16 or over and travel on a child ticket.
• Travel beyond the destination on your ticket or on a train service where your ticket is not valid.
• Travel during peak times (06:31 – 09:29 Monday – Friday, excluding bank holidays) with an off-peak ticket.
• Do not print a ticket purchased through an online third-party retailer (e.g Trainline) before travelling.
• Were unable to buy a ticket at the station where your journey began and are changing trains at a station where there is a ticket office or ticket vending machine close to the platform, and you didn’t buy or collect a ticket before boarding a train and completing your journey.

 

[Jack Hay]

I read it as the OP bought tickets on the Northern Rail app then travelled to Liverpool Central. There are stations from which this would be quite normal, for instance on the Warrington Central line (change at LSP), or north of Ormskirk, and of course it is perfectly valid to buy tickets on the Northern app for rail journey that's not on Northern Rail. But to help, as others say, the OP needs to give us more information.

 

[Hadders]

This is an unfortunate incident.

It sounds as thought @Sooty2004 purchased tickets on the Northern Rail app which normally would be issed immediately as an e-ticket. Unfortunately Merseyrail do not accept e-tickets so the tickets would have required collecting from a station before departure. Unfortunately @Sooty2004 did not collect the tickets before boarding the train which legally means they did not have a valid ticket.

I'm assuming a Penalty Fare was issued which, if I am correct, is an appropriate outcome for passengers who is travelling without a valid ticket. In order to know whether it is worth appealing we need to see exactly what you were issued with.

Finally, I would not fight this in court. The situation is bonkers but from a legal point of view you did not have a valid ticket and you would be found guilty by the court, however unfair this seems.

 

[Starmill]

I know this seems unfair, but as you didn't actually have the tickets, you were travelling without a ticket. Unfortunately, this is a criminal offence. If you wish to appeal, it will need to be on some technicality that the Penalty Fare wasn't correct.

 

[Jack Hay]

This is an unfortunate incident.

It sounds as thought @Sooty2004 purchased tickets on the Northern Rail app which normally would be issed immediately as an e-ticket. Unfortunately Merseyrail do not accept e-tickets so the tickets would have required collecting from a station before departure. Unfortunately @Sooty2004 did not collect the tickets before boarding the train which legally means they did not have a valid ticket.

I'm assuming a Penalty Fare was issued which, if I am correct, is an appropriate outcome for passengers who is travelling without a valid ticket. In order to know whether it is worth appealing we need to see exactly what you were issued with.

Finally, I would not fight this in court. The situation is bonkers but from a legal point of view you did not have a valid ticket and you would be found guilty by the court, however unfair this seems.

The e-ticket issue on MerseyRail is a known problem, known to MerseyRail too. I actually used one recently because I had no choice. I started my journey at an unstaffed station (outside Merseyside), intending to buy a ticket at the sole ticket machine, which was out of order when I arrived (and still so when I returned later in the day). So I bought an e-ticket to Liverpool Stations on my phone. I travelled to Lime Street, went down the escalator to the low level platform for a connection to James Street. Of course I had to show my e-ticket to the gate lne staff at Lime Street Low Level, and again at James Street. They let me through. If they hadn't, I could have walked across the city. But it was raining.

 

[JBuchananGB]

There are staffed ticket offices at nearly all Merseyrail stations. These ticket offices will issue Credit Card Sized Tickets (CCSTs) to fulfil any tickets bought using online sites or apps. Alternatively they might sell a ticket that is better value than those that can be bought from web sites and apps. Unfortunately the OP and their companions have gone past a ticket office at which they could have fulfilled their online purchase or bought a ticket, and have boarded a train without a ticket. The penalty fares are due.

 

[Jack Hay]

There are staffed ticket offices at nearly all Merseyrail stations. These ticket offices will issue Credit Card Sized Tickets (CCSTs) to fulfil any tickets bought using online sites or apps. Alternatively they might sell a ticket that is better value than those that can be bought from web sites and apps. Unfortunately the OP and their companions have gone past a ticket office at which they could have fulfilled their online purchase or bought a ticket, and have boarded a train without a ticket. The penalty fares are due.

I don't think we know which station the OP travelled from and therefore whether the party passed a ticket office en route or not.

 

[Deafdoggie]

There are staffed ticket offices at nearly all Merseyrail stations. These ticket offices will issue Credit Card Sized Tickets (CCSTs) to fulfil any tickets bought using online sites or apps. Alternatively they might sell a ticket that is better value than those that can be bought from web sites and apps. Unfortunately the OP and their companions have gone past a ticket office at which they could have fulfilled their online purchase or bought a ticket, and have boarded a train without a ticket. The penalty fares are due.

We don't know where the OP boarded so can't comment on this. There are unstaffed Merseyrail stations. We don't even know if their journey started on Merseyrail or if they changed onto it.

 

[Snow1964]

We don't know where the OP boarded so can't comment on this. There are unstaffed Merseyrail stations. We don't even know if their journey started on Merseyrail or if they changed onto it.

We need to know journey start station, and if they changed trains.

However if they had a collect ticket before departure, but hadn't then it's possible they travelled without ticket on the connection too (but wasn't inspected).

Although could be there was nowhere to collect tickets where they joined or connected. We need the stations identified.

If Op never collected the tickets, it is possible they might be refundable (depending on tickets) if they act promptly. But that raises a dilemma as can't really then dispute the £9 ticket that was added to the penalty if original tickets are cancelled.

 

[Starmill]

If the OP intended to appeal a Penalty Fare they'd require their original tickets to submit in evidence with the appeal. They must not refund them therefore. If they're content to pay the Penalty Fare, they may choose to refund the tickets, if that's an option, and net of any fees.

 

[spag23]

They must not refund them therefore.

But don't some TOD tickets get auto-refunded anyway, if not collected?

 

[KirkstallOne]

It would be helpful to upload an image of the penalty fare issued (with identifying details / case numbers redacted) and details of the exact journey you were making as there have been quite a few cases where mistakes made on the penalty fare have formed the basis of successful appeals.

 

[Starmill]

But don't some TOD tickets get auto-refunded anyway, if not collected?

It's definitely a possibility so I'd recommend collecting them if they haven't been.