Penalty Fare after trying to buy a ticket on the train

[doog]

Hello,

So a couple weeks ago I go the train from Sheffield to Edale and tried to buy a ticket on the train as I had done many times before.
Anyway I was hit with a penalty fare this time despite making no attempt to avoid paying my ticket
Sheffield is a gateless station so I just walked straight onto the train, I had no idea you could receive a fine for not buying a ticket before you got on.
I sent in an appeal which was rejected today, it all seems a bit mad to me that I was never informed when buying a ticket on the train previously that this was technically not allowed.
Probably just going to pay the £50 unless anyone thinks it's worth reappealing or ignoring but does anyone know why all the other times I ws able to buy a ticket on the exact same route no issues?
Is it just a case of this particular conductor being mean? Did something change recently? Have I just had a run of good luck previously?

Thanks

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Is it just a case of this particular conductor being mean?

I think you would've encountered a RPI (Revenue Protection staff), who are trained to issue penalty fares, which not as many guards can.
RPI are typically more thorough with ticket checks and things such as railcards and issue penalty fares.

 

[Haywain]

Have I just had a run of good luck previously?

This. There is really no excuse for not buying a ticket at Sheffield station - it's got a ticket office and a large number of Ticket Vending Machines.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Hello,

So a couple weeks ago I go the train from Sheffield to Edale and tried to buy a ticket on the train as I had done many times before.
Anyway I was hit with a penalty fare this time despite making no attempt to avoid paying my ticket
Sheffield is a gateless station so I just walked straight onto the train, I had no idea you could receive a fine for not buying a ticket before you got on.
I sent in an appeal which was rejected today, it all seems a bit mad to me that I was never informed when buying a ticket on the train previously that this was technically not allowed.
Probably just going to pay the £50 unless anyone thinks it's worth reappealing or ignoring but does anyone know why all the other times I ws able to buy a ticket on the exact same route no issues?
Is it just a case of this particular conductor being mean? Did something change recently? Have I just had a run of good luck previously?

Thanks

You probably had a run of luck previously.... It's long been technically not allowed to board a train without a valid ticket (unless there's no way you could get the ticket you wanted at the station first; clearly unlikely to be the case at Sheffield). But some on-board staff are happy to sell tickets regardless, especially on a route where some stations don't have proper ticket facilities (such as the Edale line) and they're used to needing to sell on the train - which isn't so helpful for people like you, in the end!

NB - your penalty fare isn't technically a "fine", which would be what happened if a criminal offence were alleged and the case went to court. A penalty fare is literally a special (punitive) type of fare; there's no criminal record or anythng like that, which could be the case if you paid an actual fine.

 

[jfollows]

Is it just a case of this particular conductor being mean? Did something change recently? Have I just had a run of good luck previously?

Thanks

Yes, you were lucky in the past, and unfortunately probably didn't know the detailed conditions of travel (https://assets.nationalrail.co.uk/e...572570/National_Rail_Conditions_of_Travel.pdf) which state

6.1 You must hold a valid Ticket or authority to travel before you board a train where there was the opportunity to buy one unless one of the following circumstances applies:
6.1.1 At the station where you start your journey, there is no means of purchasing a Ticket, either because there is no Ticket office open or a self-service Ticket machine is not in working order, or will not accept your only available method of payment (card or cash); and where notices indicate that Penalty Fares may apply from that station, you purchase a Permit to Travel if there is a working Permit to Travel issuing machine at the station where you start your journey – see Condition 10 for more information about Penalty Fares; or
6.1.2 The station is staffed, and you are specifically permitted to board a train service by an authorised member of staff, or you have received a written notice or heard an audible announcement to this effect; or
6.1.3 At the station where you start your journey, there is no means of purchasing a Ticket, because
6.1.3.1 the Ticket office is closed; or
6.1.3.2 a self-service Ticket machine is not in working order, or will not accept your preferred method of payment (card or cash); or
6.1.3.3 You have a disability and Ticket purchasing arrangements at the station you are departing from are not accessible to you.
In these cases, you must, as soon as you are reasonably able, buy an appropriate Ticket to complete your journey. The price of the Ticket you purchase will be the same as if you had bought a Ticket at the station from which you first departed.

 

[doog]

I think you would've encountered a RPI (Revenue Protection staff), who are trained to issue penalty fares, which not as many guards can.
RPI are typically more thorough with ticket checks and things such as railcards and issue penalty fares.

There's specialist conductors specifically there to fine people? So regular conductors/guards are just unable to issue fines? Fairs all seems a bit pointless that they all have the ability to just let me buy a ticket but guess that's just how they make the extra money :/

You probably had a run of luck previously.... It's long been technically not allowed to board a train without a valid ticket (unless there's no way you could get the ticket you wanted at the station first; clearly unlikely to be the case at Sheffield). But some on-board staff are happy to sell tickets regardless, especially on a route where some stations don't have proper ticket facilities (such as the Edale line) and they're used to needing to sell on the train - which isn't so helpful for people like you, in the end!

NB - your penalty fare isn't technically a "fine", which would be what happened if a criminal offence were alleged and the case went to court. A penalty fare is literally a special (punitive) type of fare; there's no criminal record or anythng like that, which could be the case if you paid an actual fine.

I see thanks yes maybe the fact it's the Edale line helped with people willing to sell me a ticket on the train, would always buy a ticket ahead of time for longer journeys.
Bit rough it's a flat fine regardless of distance, should have made the mostof it and gone somewhere further haha

 

[Fawkes Cat]

There's specialist conductors specifically there to fine people? So regular conductors/guards are just unable to issue fines? Fairs all seems a bit pointless that they all have the ability to just let me buy a ticket but guess that's just how they make the extra money :/

That's not quite the aim. The regular conductors ('guards') are there to make sure that the train operates safely (this goes all the way back to the very early days of the railway, when the steam engines didn't have terribly good brakes, so the guard was in their specialist van to work brakes and make the train stop, while the driver's job was to make the train go. This has rather changed now in that after almost 200 years of development trains have decent brakes which the driver can work): in between their safety duties and opening/closing doors, they also do a bit of checking and selling tickets - but that's strictly their secondary role.

Whoever it was who charged you a penalty fare has a rather different 'revenue protection' role. The railways work on the basis that most people will buy the right ticket at the right time - but there are occasional checks, just to make sure that this is happening (and the checks are fairly random, so you'll never know if revenue protection staff will show up - which is another good reason for making sure you've got the right ticket). To charge penalty fares, the railways are expected to stick by certain rules. So although they may have got it wrong, I would expect that on your way into Sheffield station you will have gone past big yellow posters telling you about penalty fares. Although this won't be of much comfort, if you went past those warning posters without reading them, then the railway have tried to warn you - but you ignored the warning.

 

[jfollows]

I have sympathy for you; it's probably not worth pursuing this further because it's "only" a penalty fare as AlbertBeale observes, but I think it's bad that sometimes staff show their "flexibility" and sell you a ticket and then at other times you get hit with a penalty fare. As you said, the very least they should do is to tell you that although they're selling you a ticket, technically you are liable for the penalty fare, but that's probably just too much hassle for most of them who just want to sell you a ticket and move on.

 

[doog]

I have sympathy for you; it's probably not worth pursuing this further because it's "only" a penalty fare as AlbertBeale observes, but I think it's bad that sometimes staff show their "flexibility" and sell you a ticket and then at other times you get hit with a penalty fare. As you said, the very least they should do is to tell you that although they're selling you a ticket, technically you are liable for the penalty fare, but that's probably just too much hassle for most of them who just want to sell you a ticket and move on.

Thanks I guess sympathy is the best I can get haha, annoying but guess I'll just have to take this as an educational moment

 

[yorkie]

Just a gentle reminder this is a specific disputes thread; people are welcome to discuss the rights and wrongs of Penalty Fare policy elsewhere (indeed we have some threads already which may be suitable)

You are welcome to link to this thread from any other, and similarly link to any new thread (or new post in an existing thread) from this one, where appropriate.

Many thanks for your understanding

 

[furlong]

Well I'd suggest you use the appeals process. If you've evidence of previously purchasing on the train without being warned not to do so again, then provide this - *proving* this happened *lots* of times undermines their ability to impose a penalty. Couple that with the point that the signage at Sheffield is self-evidently inadequate and doesn't meet the requirements of the regulations - for if it did, you would have seen it and read it and not assumed you could buy on board so many times! You get 3 appeals. If they reject the first one, you can repeat the argument more formally the second time, including supporting quotes. For example:

The now-defunct SRA considered the matter and concluded:

Selling tickets on penalty fares trains
4.34 The basic principle of any penalty fares scheme is that passengers must buy their tickets before they get on their train. If passengers find that they can buy their ticket on the train from the conductor or guard, it undermines this message. For this reason, we will not allow tickets to be sold on penalty fares trains unless either:
a) the on-train staff are trained as, and act as, authorised collectors, so they can charge a penalty fare to any passenger who is liable for one; or
b) the on-train staff issue a printed penalty fares warning, as well as a ticket, to any passenger who is liable to a penalty fare, and draw the passenger’s attention to the warning.

While the regulations have been updated since, the underlying legislation has not changed so this position should still hold substantial weight making it difficult for any fair and independent appeals body asked to consider the matter to reach a different conclusion.

 

[Krokodil]

Have you got any tickets you have bought in the past? Have a look on the back, there is (or was) a warning printed.