Permissible routes on off-peak return b/t Oxford and Wakefield

[Fermiboson]

As title. If I'm travelling on a weekend, what routes can I get away with? And would any of those routes be cheaper on advance singles?

The obvious ones are of course XC to Birmingham and XC to Sheffield (or Wakefield direct depending on the time) then change for a Northern service, and GWR to London for a fast one up the ECML. Off-peak return tickets are 77 pounds while advance singles for both of the above generally hover around 50 pounds.

Minor variations I've considered include:
GWR to Worcester and WMR to BNS. This one is not cheaper, and slower, but more reliable(?)
XC from Birmingham to Leicester and change for the MML. As far as I can tell, this is actually slightly cheaper at times, although it was a month back when I checked it and I have been unable to replicate it.
XC to Nottingham and EMR/Northern through Sheffield. A curious combination, but not cheaper by any stretch of the imagination.
Going up the MML from London. Considering Grand Central offers advance singles from KX for 9 pounds occasionally(????), unlikely to beat the cost.

The only major deviation I can think of is going to Manchester and heading to either Sheffield or Leeds (and the other way round). It would certainly be a more tortuous route (I have to stand on the XC service for three hours), but is one I briefly considered one windy autumn evening on platform 8 in Doncaster, upon hearing "The 1800 XC service to Plymouth will be delayed by 117 minutes". I also can't imagine it could be any cheaper, and I would probably have a hard time justifying it to any guard who checks my return ticket.

If we include connecting buses, however, the possibilities start to add up. National Express 737 runs a fairly reliable service between Oxford, Milton Keynes, Luton, and Hatfield on the ECML (serving as a kind of poor man's EWR). This also allows for earlier arrival times while avoiding any peak costs (if travelling on weekdays, or if for some reason London is out so the earliest service is 0939 XC). Tickets also appear to be at a more palatable price level (because they don't involve XC?). For example, an advance single from Sheffield to MK is 23 pounds via Nottingham and Leicester, as opposed to 46 from Sheffield to Oxford via the same. Sheffield to Luton is 18 pounds. Bus tickets are 15 pounds.

This opens up options such as a bus to Luton, and Luton to Wakefield via Sheffield and the MML, or Oxford to MK then going up the WCML to Tamworth. Cheapest these go for is 66 pounds.

I suppose that there aren't that many other options, given fundamentally there are three lines running from a vaguely southward-facing direction into West Yorkshire (TPE from Manchester, MML, and ECML). But I'm interested in what sort of weird routes might be possible on an off-peak, or in general.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Off-peak return tickets are 77 pounds...

Is that £77.40 and possibly with Railcard discount? If so, it's got "Not via London" routeing and presume that you'd usually end up travelling via Birmingham New St.

Travel via London will, I believe, require 2 x Super Off Peak singles (£54.60 each way) as Off Peak Returns aren't available from Oxford to Wakefield with Route "✠ Any Permitted" (which allows the cross London transfer).

 

[Fermiboson]

Is that £77.40 and possibly with Railcard discount? If so, it's got "Not via London" routeing and presume that you'd usually end up travelling via Birmingham New St.

Travel via London will, I believe, require 2 x Super Off Peak singles (£54.60 each way) as Off Peak Returns aren't available from Oxford to Wakefield with Route "✠ Any Permitted" (which allows the cross London transfer).

Yes, all prices quoted are with Railcard discounts.

What about a split off peak return of Oxford <-> London <-> Wakefield?

 

[Haywain]

Going up the MML from London. Considering Grand Central offers advance singles from KX for 9 pounds occasionally(????), unlikely to beat the cost.

Grand Central do not operate on the Midland Main Line.

 

[jfollows]

The routeing guide gives

• LONDON
• RL

as valid routes, but as others have already observed, the ticket is likely to be "NOT VIA LONDON" so you need to consult map RL at https://data.atoc.org/routeing-maps
Essentially Oxford-Leamington, then a variety of routes to Derby, then Sheffield, then a number of routes thence to Wakefield including via Doncaster.


So you can't go via Worcester or Manchester. Leicester is allowed (via Coventry-Nuneaton if you want, as well as via Birmingham). Nottingham is not. Your more fanciful routes are not.

London-Wakefield (requiring separate tickets) has routes for "any permitted" tickets shown by maps:

• AD (Liverpool Street - Cambridge - Peterborough)
• AD + DH
• EE (King's Cross various routes including Cambridge and ECML)
• GU (Grand Central routes)
• KS + AD
• SY (Saint Pancras)

 

[MrJeeves]

For simplicity, I've stitched it into one long image and blocked off what isn't of use:



Want some fun?

Oxford - Leamington Spa - Warwick - Stratford-upon-Avon - Tyseley - Birmingham Moor Street - Birmingham New Street - Coventry - Nuneaton - Leicester - Loughborough - Derby - Chesterfield - Sheffield - Meadowhall - Swinton - Pontefract - Doncaster - Wakefield

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Doesn't routeing via Stratford-upon-Avon involve passing through Wilmcote more than once? Is that permitted?

 

[jfollows]

Doesn't routeing via Stratford-upon-Avon involve passing through Wilmcote more than once? Is that permitted?

It’s how it shows on the maps that matters, not how it is in reality. The maps do not show any “double-back” so it’s OK.

 

[MrJeeves]

Doesn't routeing via Stratford-upon-Avon involve passing through Wilmcote more than once? Is that permitted?

Wilmcote isn't a routeing point.

 

[Watershed]

It’s how it shows on the maps that matters, not how it is in reality. The maps do not show any “double-back” so it’s OK.

I'm afraid that's not quite right. The general rule is that you can't double-back through any station - i.e. pass through it more than once - when mapping permitted routes. Equally, that does sometimes allow you to pass through a Routeing Point more than once (e.g. if you go from Birmingham Moor Street to Smethwick Galton Bridge to Birmingham New Street).

In this particular case, Wilmcote is a member of the Stratford-upon-Avon Routeing Point Group; doubling back is permitted within a RP Group for interchange purposes. In this case, since most trains call at Wilmcote there isn't really any strict need to double back as far as Stratford, but journey planners allow double-backs within RP Groups even if not strictly necessary as there's nothing in the data that conveys this kind of detail.

 

[jfollows]

I'm afraid that's not quite right. The general rule is that you can't double-back through any station - i.e. pass through it more than once - when mapping permitted routes. Equally, that does sometimes allow you to pass through a Routeing Point more than once (e.g. if you go from Birmingham Moor Street to Smethwick Galton Bridge to Birmingham New Street).

In this particular case, Wilmcote is a member of the Stratford-upon-Avon Routeing Point Group; doubling back is permitted within a RP Group for interchange purposes. In this case, since most trains call at Wilmcote there isn't really any strict need to double back as far as Stratford, but journey planners allow double-backs within RP Groups even if not strictly necessary as there's nothing in the data that conveys this kind of detail.

Good clarification and correction, thank you.

 

[mangyiscute]

Worth noting that by splitting at Banbury, Birmingham and Derby you can travel the traditional route for about £65 with flexible tickets (if the trains stop at Chesterfield and/or Birmingham International, this can be reduced to as low as £61), rather than the £77 for a through ticket.
Looking on the forums ticketing website and using the cheapest selection is great if you want to see slower routes that are quite a bit cheaper - I'd recommend doing this for the through journey, but also checking Oxford to London and London to Wakefield using this method since you may be able to combine a cheap £5 Oxford to London advance (often available on tickets changing at Didcot) with a £10-20 advance from London to Wakefield - just ensure that you stick to minimum connection times through London, which for Paddington to King's Cross I think is 45 minutes.
For advance tickets, it will probably come down to how far in advance you can book the journeys, and if you're fine being tied to specific trains.