Permitted Route - Burton on Trent to London via Leeds?

[jsmith300]

Thanks in advance for your input to this routing question.

Would a Burton upon Trent to London ticket be valid via Leeds where a BOJ happens, resuming at Doncaster to continue down EC into King's Cross.

I interpret this as being valid under maps NL and ER crossing maps at Barnsley?

Thanks
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Although I don't understand what the route from Leeds to Doncaster is that avoids Selby in map ER?

 

[CallySleeper]

Strictly speaking, you can use both maps ER and NL which indicate using a Northern Rail service from Sheffield - Leeds via Barnsley only. However, because you are travelling so far in the 'wrong' direction (assuming it was a BUT - London ticket) then I would doubt very much that ticket inspectors would let this pass. Especially with it being Northern Rail. I'd let others comment on that but I think that it would be a problem because you're going so far off course as it were.

The BOJ issue would also depend on which type of ticket you held.

Personally I wouldn't ever consider doing this and would instead probably buy two separate tickets to be on the safe side.

 

[sonic2009]

AFAIK It would fail the fares check.

 

[jsmith300]

I settled buying a Nottingham to London ticket which I will pick up in Derby - will use it up to Sheffield and then break the journey resuming it in Doncaster next day. Managed to get two cheap advance tickets from Sheffield to York and York to Doncaster to bridge the gap rather than fussing around going Northern via Barnsley and Wakefield etc.
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AFAIK It would fail the fares check.

Yes you are right it would - that's why I went for a Nottingham origin ticket instead

 

[CallySleeper]

I settled buying a Nottingham to London ticket which I will pick up in Derby - will use it up to Sheffield

To be fair i'm not sure that even this would be considered legit for the same reason!

 

[yorkie]

To be fair i'm not sure that even this would be considered legit for the same reason!

It is permitted. But it may not be a hassle-free journey.

 

[jsmith300]

Hi CallySleeper - thanks for your input and your time

Can you explain why it wouldn't be considered legit - is the routing guide not what decides? If I show a print out of the two maps and trace the line would that not be sufficient?

 

[CallySleeper]

As yorkie has said, you may get hassle because it could be interpreted that you're going in such a way that means you have to double-back on yourself.

As I've said, it's something that I personally wouldn't probably attempt. Back in my youth I would often be asked questions of when trying to do even Birmingham - Nottingham via Chesterfield! (Again, techically legit route and technically not doubling back)

 

[yorkie]

As yorkie has said, you may get hassle because it could be interpreted that you're going in such a way that means you have to double-back on yourself.

Doubling back doesn't occur here, by the definition provided in the Routeing Guide. If someone interpreted it was doubling-back, they'd be incorrect.

 

[John @ home]

I don't understand what the route from Leeds to Doncaster is that avoids Selby in map ER?

The Leeds - Cross Gates - Doncaster route in map ER is:

Leeds - Neville Hill West Jn - Neville Hill East Jn - Cross Gates - Garforth - East Garforth - Micklefield - South Milford - Hambleton West Jn - Hambleton South Jn - Temple Hirst Jn - Doncaster

It is a useful diversionary route between Leeds and Doncaster avoiding Wakefield, which would become much more useful on completion of electrification between Neville Hill depot and Hambleton South Jn.

Passenger Train Services over Unusual Lines shows that Hambleton West Jn - Hambleton South Jn is currently used by one passenger train weekly: the Saturdays only 1A13 0655 Skipton to London Kings Cross.

 

[jsmith300]

thanks all

 

[All Line Rover]

AFAIK It would fail the fares check.

Can I just clarify something?

For a Burton to London ticket, Nottingham passes the fares-check but Derby does not. Therefore, as it is not possible to travel to Nottingham on a route that avoids Derby group (which fails the fares-check) it is not possible to use Nottingham as a Routeing Point.

Am I correct in this thinking?

 

[OwlMan]

Can I just clarify something?

For a Burton to London ticket, Nottingham passes the fares-check but Derby does not. Therefore, as it is not possible to travel to Nottingham on a route that avoids Derby group (which fails the fares-check) it is not possible to use Nottingham as a Routeing Point.

Am I correct in this thinking?

In my opinion Nottingham is not usable as a routeing point as there is no service between Burton & Nottingham that does not pass through a routeing point. I understand it was a routeing point because at the time of compilation services were expected to start over the direct line from Burton to Trent bypassing Derby.

From NRG
A related station cannot be used to look up permitted routes in the Routeing Guide.
Only routeing points can be used for that. All related stations are therefore associated with the nearest routeing point or routeing point group in each direction.
A related station may have up to 4 associations.........
Sometimes a station has no scheduled passenger service to one of the routeing points to which it is related. These routeing points should be ignored.

.

 

[jsmith300]

I went with a ticket originating in Nottingham so as to avoid fare checks. I will then pick this up in Derby with a single from Burton to Derby to bridge the gap.