Permitted routes between two stations

[davsarg]

Hi guys,

On train tickets and on National Rail's website there is a statement that say that journeys can be completed "via any permitted route". Is there a website where I can put in a starting station and a finishing station and have it tell me/list out all the permitted routes between the two?

Thanks

 

[jfollows]

Routeing Guide Data | data.atoc.org

This guide shows the full range of permitted routes available for use with tickets on
the National Rail network. The content has been approved by the Department for
Transport. If you are planning a journey we would strongly advise you to make use of
the Journey Planner at www.nationalrail.co.uk. Any ticket indicated for use in
conjunction with a particular journey when using the Journey Planner will
automatically be valid for the route and service indicated.

PLEASE NOTE this guide is of necessity a complex document and the Journey
Planner should be used to validate any intended route (including relevant ‘via’ points)
to ensure that it can be used with your ticket. This is especially necessary if using
this guide to identify whether an indirect or unusual route is valid for use.

TO USE THIS GUIDE: Follow the steps below to identify the permitted routes for the
journey that you wish to make. Please ensure that you read the instructions on how
to use the National Routeing Guide before you begin the search.

You're presumably looking for something simpler than this but the thing you're looking for doesn't exist if so. The starting point is a set of instructions, data, maps and easements, which get revised all the time. If you're going to be wanting to work out "permitted routes" frequently then you probably need to invest in understanding the fundamental rules. Alternatively you can try and get the "Journey Planner" to book a ticket for you and see which routes it uses because these will automatically be valid.
Finally, if you're only interested in a particular route between a specific pair of stations, you can always post a question here and often someone else will be able to tell you whether or not it's valid.

 

[davsarg]

Routeing Guide Data | data.atoc.org

You're presumably looking for something simpler than this but the thing you're looking for doesn't exist if so. The starting point is a set of instructions, data, maps and easements, which get revised all the time. If you're going to be wanting to work out "permitted routes" frequently then you probably need to invest in understanding the fundamental rules. Alternatively you can try and get the "Journey Planner" to book a ticket for you and see which routes it uses because these will automatically be valid.
Finally, if you're only interested in a particular route between a specific pair of stations, you can always post a question here and often someone else will be able to tell you whether or not it's valid.

Ok well, it's part of a much larger 'epic' journey but at the moment I'm just trying to figure out what the permitted routes are between Dunkeld & Birnham and Aberdeen?

 

[duncanp]

Ok well, it's part of a much larger 'epic' journey but at the moment I'm just trying to figure out what the permitted routes are between Dunkeld & Birnham and Aberdeen?

According to the routeing guide, Dunkeld & Birnam has routeing points of Perth and Inverness.

This means that for the purposes of determining permitted routes, a journey from Dunkeld & Birnam to Aberdeen is treated as if it were a journey from Inverness to Aberdeen or a journey from Perth to Aberdeen.

So the answer to your question is that you can travel from Dunkeld & Birnam to either Perth or Inverness, and then change there for a train to Aberdeen.

The same rules apply for any station on the line between Perth and Inverness (eg. Pitlochry, Aviemore)

 

[jfollows]

So the answer to your question is that you can travel from Dunkeld & Birnam to either Perth or Inverness, and then change there for a train to Aberdeen.

Agreed, and you can test it out on the National Rail Journey Planner, which will mainly come up with routes via Perth because it's quicker, but if you tell it to route via Inverness (Advanced Search) then it will come up with services this way using the same ticket quite happily. [Obviously in the latter case it may also come up with 'silly' routes via Inverness and Perth but they can be discounted.]

 

[davsarg]

According to the routeing guide, Dunkeld & Birnam has routeing points of Perth and Inverness.

This means that for the purposes of determining permitted routes, a journey from Dunkeld & Birnam to Aberdeen is treated as if it were a journey from Inverness to Aberdeen or a journey from Perth to Aberdeen.

So the answer to your question is that you can travel from Dunkeld & Birnam to either Perth or Inverness, and then change there for a train to Aberdeen.

The same rules apply for any station on the line between Perth and Inverness (eg. Pitlochry, Aviemore)

Ahh that's brilliant thank you, that's just what I was hoping for. The epic journey I'm planning is:

Day 1 - Wrexham General to Aberdeen via Glasgow Central/Queen Street and Inverness
Day 2 - Aberdeen to Penzance (8:20 direct service as long as it's running)
Day 3 - day Visit to St. Ives
Day 4 - Penzance back to Wrexham General via Newport

Yes I know, I'm crazy!

Apart from Penzance to Bristol which is unavoidable, I wanted to avoid traveling on any part of the route more than once, hence the reason for wanting to go to Aberdeen via Inverness. The reason I was asking about Dunkeld & Birnham is that the ticket splitting website was suggesting generating one of the tickets as far as there. I thought this was a bit odd so thought I'd check with you guys

 

[Cheshire Scot]

According to the routeing guide, Dunkeld & Birnam has routeing points of Perth and Inverness.

This means that for the purposes of determining permitted routes, a journey from Dunkeld & Birnam to Aberdeen is treated as if it were a journey from Inverness to Aberdeen or a journey from Perth to Aberdeen.

So the answer to your question is that you can travel from Dunkeld & Birnam to either Perth or Inverness, and then change there for a train to Aberdeen.

The same rules apply for any station on the line between Perth and Inverness (eg. Pitlochry, Aviemore)

That is really interesting given the mileage via Inverness is almost double the mileage via Perth, and equally the reverse would apply for a journey starting at Carr Bridge although in this case the mileage via Perth is 'only' (very) approximately 50%. Scope for a round trip, out one way and back the other (assuming time is not of the essence).
No doubt there are many similar cases which might on the face of it be regarded as anomalys whilst on the other side of the coin there will be many journeys where an apparently sensible route only a few miles or a few percent longer in not permitted.

Apart from Penzance to Bristol which is unavoidable, I wanted to avoid traveling on any part of the route more than once, hence the reason for wanting to go to Aberdeen via Inverness. The reason I was asking about Dunkeld & Birnham is that the ticket splitting website was suggesting generating one of the tickets as far as there. I thought this was a bit odd so thought I'd check with you guys

And if you buy a return it will be valid as far as Dundee on the Penzance train(although cheaper options may be available), be aware however, some trains to Inverness do not call at Dunkeld & Birnham.
As you say, an epic journey, good luck and enjoy.

 

[davsarg]

And if you buy a return it will be valid as far as Dundee on the Penzance train(although cheaper options may be available), be aware however, some trains to Inverness do not call at Dunkeld & Birnham.
As you say, an epic journey, good luck and enjoy.

initial enquiries with ticketsplitting.com suggests getting the 12:09 from Glasgow Queen Street to Inverness. As things stand that service is scheduled to stop at Dunkeld and Birnham so all should be good

 

[Class800]

Do beware however that Dunkeld and Birnham is one of the most likely stops to be removed in the event of disruption

 

[MikeWh]

Do beware however that Dunkeld and Birnham is one of the most likely stops to be removed in the event of disruption

If it's removed as a way of recovering the service then it shouldn't affect split tickets as the train was scheduled to call there.

 

[yorkie]

You're presumably looking for something simpler than this but the thing you're looking for doesn't exist if so. ...

It does exist but is not available to the general public; if it was, pricing managers might use it to close loopholes!

According to the routeing guide, Dunkeld & Birnam has routeing points of Perth and Inverness.

Yes both are appropriate routeing points, agreed.

This means that for the purposes of determining permitted routes, a journey from Dunkeld & Birnam to Aberdeen is treated as if it were a journey from Inverness to Aberdeen or a journey from Perth to Aberdeen.

Yes the mapped routes are determined from the appropriate routeing point to the destination.

The same rules apply for any station on the line between Perth and Inverness (eg. Pitlochry, Aviemore)

Yes the (SOS/SDS) single fares from all these stations to Aberdeen appear to be no lower than the fares from either Perth or Inverness, and therefore both pass the fares check and both are appropriate routeing points.

If it's removed as a way of recovering the service then it shouldn't affect split tickets as the train was scheduled to call there.

Agreed!

 

[davsarg]

Ahh that's brilliant thank you, that's just what I was hoping for. The epic journey I'm planning is:

Day 1 - Wrexham General to Aberdeen via Glasgow Central/Queen Street and Inverness
Day 2 - Aberdeen to Penzance (8:20 direct service as long as it's running)
Day 3 - day Visit to St. Ives
Day 4 - Penzance back to Wrexham General via Newport

Yes I know, I'm crazy!

Apart from Penzance to Bristol which is unavoidable, I wanted to avoid traveling on any part of the route more than once, hence the reason for wanting to go to Aberdeen via Inverness. The reason I was asking about Dunkeld & Birnham is that the ticket splitting website was suggesting generating one of the tickets as far as there. I thought this was a bit odd so thought I'd check with you guys

Can I ask you guys your opinion on something please. I'm planning to do this journey 1st class in June and my original idea was to use ticket splitting. If I do this I would end up with a total of 19 different tickets and loads of reservations, all at a cost of £781. The alternative is to get a 7 day 1st class All Line Rail Rover at a cost of £818. Doing it this way it would be £37 more expensive, I would have no reservations, but it would be far more convenient as I would only have ONE ticket. Faced with this choice, what would you guys do?

 

[Class800]

Definitely the All Line Rover would be more convenient. Potential downsides are lack of reservations - however can get these separately from many TOCs now - and potential issues with cross London validity on the tube if that is relevant to your final itinerary.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Definitely the All Line Rover would be more convenient. Potential downsides are lack of reservations - however can get these separately from many TOCs now - and potential issues with cross London validity on the tube if that is relevant to your final itinerary.

Another plus for All Line, with a four day itinerary you would have a further three days you could use for any side trips you might want to make.

 

[richw]

The ALR would give you greater flexibility to make changes, or add on adhoc journeys if time allows. For what is a small extra in the scheme of things I’d go for that ticket. It gives you 3 extra days for local trips from home too if you so wish.

 

[pitdiver]

Talking of All Line Rovers, can you get at Priv Rate?

 

[jfollows]

Can I ask you guys your opinion on something please. I'm planning to do this journey 1st class in June and my original idea was to use ticket splitting. If I do this I would end up with a total of 19 different tickets and loads of reservations, all at a cost of £781. The alternative is to get a 7 day 1st class All Line Rail Rover at a cost of £818. Doing it this way it would be £37 more expensive, I would have no reservations, but it would be far more convenient as I would only have ONE ticket. Faced with this choice, what would you guys do?

I would get an all-line rover and I would visit a station to make reservations for a subset of the train services - the ones I thought might be busy. The flexibility of being able to make last-minute changes for whatever reason would be very much a bonus.

 

[Class800]

Do check for any peak time restrictions on the all line rover for the routes you plan to use

 

[robbeech]

Certainly the all line rover. You can obtain reservations at any ticket office or online.
You don’t have to worry about trains calling at specific stations to satisfy your split tickets.
If there’s disruption on the day you could vary the route accordingly to stay on track.
You get an extra 3 days of travel either at the start or the end or both.
You could spend some time looking at potential deviations to the route you might like to do if you’re not limited to routes.

Do check for any peak time restrictions on the all line rover for the routes you plan to use

Good advice although there are none for any of the route mentioned here. But if they changed plans to go to London on day 4 and leave early on Day 5 for example this could affect things.

 

[Class800]

Certainly the all line rover. You can obtain reservations at any ticket office or online.
You don’t have to worry about trains calling at specific stations to satisfy your split tickets.
If there’s disruption on the day you could vary the route accordingly to stay on track.
You get an extra 3 days of travel either at the start or the end or both.
You could spend some time looking at potential deviations to the route you might like to do if you’re not limited to routes.


Good advice although there are none for any of the route mentioned here. But if they changed plans to go to London on day 4 and leave early on Day 5 for example this could affect things.

True. With the current stated itinerary, the only issue could potentially be if on the first day a break of journey was made early in Birmingham as it can't be used for boarding or alighting XC, Avanti (or EMR or LNER) services at a range of stations (mainly London termini), but including Birmingham New Street, weekdays before 10.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Talking of All Line Rovers, can you get at Priv Rate?

Yes but only off of the class of travel you're entitled to.

 

[kieron]

I'd definitely wait until nearer the time to make any decisions about tickets. There could be some reasonably priced advance tickets for the days you wish to travel, and other things might change before you're ready to go.

I don't know if the web site you used takes this into account, but first class upgrades (which a few different train companies sell) can make a big difference to the cost of first class travel. For instance, a first class Aberdeen-Penzance single costs £390.30. A standard class single, together with a weekend first upgrade (which you can buy in advance or on the day) costs £291. It may be different in June, but Aberdeen-Penzance trains only run on Saturdays at the moment.

 

[pitdiver]

Yes but only off the class of travel you're entitled to.

That's fine I have std class so no problem. Don't suppose the wife would want to come.