Permitted Routes Sheffield - Leeds

[Haydn1971]

Having tried to figure out my permitted routes, I'm left baffled by the documentation, could anyone be so kind as to help me identify my "permitted routes" between Sheffield and Leeds. Thinking via Halifax in particular, but what about more extreme diversions, York, Selby, Manchester even ?

 

[SS4]

1. The shortest route and and direct trains are always valid
   
2. From the Pink Pages we see that Sheffield (SHF) and Leeds (LDS) belong to Sheffield Group and Leeds Group respectively.
   
3. Consulting the Mapped routes on the Yellow Pages we get DO, SY and YL
   
   • DO is via Doncaster
   • SY shows either via Barnsley or via Swinton
   • YL is via Swinton
   
   Check for easements

There may be a different ticket that lets you travel taking advantage of break of journey etc

 

[Mugby]

I've noticed whenever I buy a priv day return from Sheffield to Leeds, it's marked 'Not via Doncaster'

Presumably this means I'm not allowed to travel on, say, a Northern service to Don and then change onto an East Coast service.

But does it also apply to a Cross Country through service which is routed that way?

 

[maniacmartin]

It means that you cannot travel on any train that passes though Doncaster, regardless of whether it stops there or whether you change trains there.

You can get Priv ANY PERMITTED tickets for Leeds to Sheffield, which would permit travel via Doncaster, but they are slightly more expensive

(£3.80 as opposed to £3.05 for NOT VIA DONCASTR for a Priv Anytime Day R in Standard class)

 

[Haydn1971]

So would I need to pay to go via Halifax ?

 

[ainsworth74]

It means that you cannot travel on any train that passes though Doncaster, regardless of whether it stops there or whether you change trains there.

This may just be an issue of clarity but I would suggest that if a train does not call at Doncaster but goes through it without calling then a ticket marked 'Not Doncaster' would still be valid. For example a CrossCountry service from York to Sheffield that for whatever reason was not booked to call at Doncaster but went via it anyway would not be barred to passenger holding 'Not Doncaster' tickets simply because there is no way for the passenger to know that they're going via Doncaster.

Obviously if a departure board or journey planner showed that the service was calling then the train is barred. But if I turned up, bought my ticket, got on a service that was not advertised as going via Doncaster (but did anyway) I do not see how my ticket could be considered invalid.

So would I need to pay to go via Halifax ?

Yes. As far as I can tell going via Halifax is not a permitted route so you would need to buy a combination of tickets (that is likely to be more than a Sheffield - Leeds ticket) for that journey. However to give better advice you need to give us more information on your journey needs.

 

[bb21]

So would I need to pay to go via Halifax ?

You will need to buy two separate tickets, one from Sheffield to Halifax and one from Halifax to Leeds.

Without knowing your journey requirements, I am unable to say whether an alternative ticket is valid for your itinerary and cheaper than buying two tickets.

But if I turned up, bought my ticket, got on a service that was not advertised as going via Doncaster (but did anyway) I do not see how my ticket could be considered invalid.

I am unconvinced. The counter-argument is that you should have checked with staff prior to departure, as your ticket shows a restriction. Once onboard, of course the TM could do an excess.

 

[sonic2009]

It means that you cannot travel on any train that passes though Doncaster

I would disagree how would a normal fare paying passenger know which route their train takes, ie if a XC train is booked Sheffield - Wakefield Westgate via Doncaster but not booked to stop.

 

[tbtc]

You can travel via Huddersfield AIUI (there are some direct services, albeit v slow!)

I would disagree how would a normal fare paying passenger know which route their train takes, ie if a XC train is booked Sheffield - Wakefield Westgate via Doncaster but not booked to stop.

You do get the choice of two tickets to buy - a "via Doncaster" and a "not via Doncaster" - the staff may expect you to have borne this in mind when purchasing the ticket? Dunno.

Part of the problem is that the only "via Doncaster" direct services are the EMT ones, and I don't know whether their longer distance staff would appreciate these "local" ticketing differences?

 

[ainsworth74]

You can travel via Huddersfield AIUI (there are some direct services, albeit v slow!)

This is true. If the train is direct from Sheffield to Leeds then on a ticket with route 'Any Permitted' it does not matter which route it takes as direct trains are always considered permitted routes (as long as there isn't a restriction like 'Not Via Doncaster' in which case a train calling there is barred even if it is direct from Sheffield to Leeds).

You do get the choice of two tickets to buy - a "via Doncaster" and a "not via Doncaster" - the staff may expect you to have borne this in mind when purchasing the ticket? Dunno.

I refer you to my above example. I walk into York ask for a ticket to Sheffield and they sell my a 'Not via Doncaster' ticket and warn me not to travel that way or my ticket is invalid. I walk out onto the concourse look at the departure board and find the next train to Sheffield is not advertised as calling at Doncaster (and therefore Doncaster does not appear at all on the board) and board this train. The train however is booked to go via Doncaster (but not call). How in this instance can my ticket be invalid? Was I expected to go to somewhere like Open Train Times to find the exact route that my train was taking?

 

[maniacmartin]

13. The route you are entitled to take
[...]
(d) The use of some tickets may be restricted to trains which take:
(i) routes passing through, or avoiding, particular locations; or
(ii) the most direct route.

(Emphasis mine)

I think this implies that going through a station but not stopping there is still invalid.

 

[yorkie]

But if it's not normally booked via Doncaster then the restriction is not enforceable if it is diverted that way due to disruption or engineering works or any other reason.

Remember that tickets valid via the usual route a train takes remain valid when a train is diverted.

If a train is not booked to call at Doncaster then there should be no problem using a "Not Doncaster" ticket.

By the way there is an interesting post on the Huddersfield routeing by John @ Home in the thread "Is a Sheffield-Leeds season ticket valid via Huddersfield".

 

[Haydn1971]

I'm not sure what extra clarity I could give - I boarded a train in Leeds, asked the guard if I needed a ticket as I was going to Sheffield via a few pints in Halifax, carrying on to Sheffield via Huddersfield - I was told I didn't need a ticket, which I was rather pleased about, but got me wondering what else I could do within the terms and got lost in the 1500 odd pages of guidence notes :-/

 

[ainsworth74]

As far as I can tell you are technically only allowed to use a Sheffield to Leeds ticket (route Any Permitted) to travel via Halifax if the train is direct and in that case if you left the train at Halifax your ticket would no longer be valid. That being said guards may choose to allow you travel anyway (or may not know that the route is not permitted) but of course that cannot be relied on.

Technically you should buy a combination of tickets if you wish to travel to Leeds via Halifax and wish to change trains to have a few pints.

 

[sheff1]

But if it's not normally booked via Doncaster then the restriction is not enforceable if it is diverted that way due to disruption or engineering works or any other reason.

Remember that tickets valid via the usual route a train takes remain valid when a train is diverted.

Bit of grey area when XC run their trains via Doncaster and Leeds which they sometimes do for a number of consecutive weekends when the service is reduced to hourly due to engineering works. This is the usual route for those weekends but not the 'usual route' and the individual trains do not correspond to one booked routing or the other.

 

[bb21]

I'm not sure what extra clarity I could give

By journey requirements, I mean single/return, if the latter, same day return, any Railcard, etc.

Without knowing at least whether you wanted a single or a return, it is not always possible to work out if there is a cheaper option.

 

[34D]

We've previously had this very issue.

Myself (and I think one other person) advanced the viewpoint that because NRCOC clause 13 a (I) is excluded from 13c that 13d also doesn't apply to direct trains.

I won't argue with people here, however I will reproduce the text and let you make up your own mind. I have done Sheffield-Leeds on a direct train that passes through Doncaster using a route not doncaster ticket many times. It is advisable to check with the EMT or XC guard on boarding.

13. The route you are entitled to take
(a) You may travel between the stations shown on the ticket you hold in:
(i) a through train;
(ii) trains which take the shortest route which can be used by scheduled passenger services; or
(iii) trains which take the routes shown in the National Routeing Guide (details as to how you can obtain this information will be available when you buy your ticket).
(b) If you are using a Zonal Ticket you may travel in trains which take any route within the zone or zones shown on the ticket.
(c) Together, the routes referred to in (a) (ii), (a) (iii) and (b) above are the “permitted routes”.
(d) The use of some tickets may be restricted to trains which take:
(i) routes passing through, or avoiding, particular locations; or
(ii) the most direct route.
These restrictions will be shown on the ticket.
(e) If you make your journey by a route other than those referred to in (a) and (b) above, you will be liable to pay an excess fare. This excess fare will be the difference between the price paid for the ticket you hold and the price of the lowest priced ticket(s) available for immediate travel that would have entitled you to travel by that route.
(f) For the purposes of this Condition, a “through train” is one which may be used by a passenger to make their entire journey without changing trains.

 

[Haydn1971]

Without knowing at least whether you wanted a single or a return, it is not always possible to work out if there is a cheaper option.

I'm not looking for a "cheaper" option, I'm wanting to know what I can do using my already purchased season ticket that says "permitted routes" between Leeds and Sheffield.

 

[John @ home]

So would I need to pay to go via Halifax ?

Yes.

I'm not looking for a "cheaper" option, I'm wanting to know what I can do using my already purchased season ticket that says "permitted routes" between Leeds and Sheffield.

If travelling from Leeds to Halifax via Bradford Interchange, no part of the route is part of a Permitted Route Leeds - Sheffield, so you need a single or return ticket Leeds - Halifax.

If travelling from Sheffield to Halifax via Penistone, part of the route (Sheffield - Barnsley) is part of a Permitted Route Leeds - Sheffield, so you need a single or return ticket Barnsley - Halifax.

If your Leeds - Sheffield season ticket does indeed say "route ANY PERMITTED", consider whether you travel Leeds - Sheffield via Doncaster. If you never travel via Doncaster, there is a small saving if you buy the Leeds - Sheffield "route NOT VIA DONCASTER" season ticket next time you need to renew.

 

[Haydn1971]

Thank you for the clarification John - suspect that the conductor didn't really want the hassle of working out the difference

As for my ticket - I generally travel between Meadowhall and Leeds which is £2172 taking advantage of the free parking at Meadowhall Interchange. The season ticket from Sheffield is less at £2148 (not via Doncaster), yet the (any permitted) is £2172, however to travel from Sheffield would cost me an extra 30 minutes each way as I'd have to use the tram to travel to and from Sheffield Station - the cost isn't that different on the Sheffield-Home leg when compared to car fuel and running costs.

I often have meetings in Sheffield, so it was logical for me to get the Leeds-Sheffield ticket, plus given the likelihood of meetings elsewhere in the UK and the added flexibility of being able to use the ECML, the extra £24 a year was a no brainer for me, especially as it brought the price to the same as the Meadowhall ticket - odd pricing though :-/

Edit - actually, does this mean that I'm "short riding" ?

 

[tbtc]

If travelling from Sheffield to Halifax via Penistone, part of the route (Sheffield - Barnsley) is part of a Permitted Route Leeds - Sheffield, so you need a single or return ticket Barnsley - Halifax

Excuse my ignorance here, but (as there are direct Leeds - Huddersfield - Penistone - Barnsley - Sheffield trains) is a Leeds - Sheffield ticket only valid when on such a train, or is it valid on (separate) Leeds - Huddersfield and Huddersfield - Sheffield services?

 

[John @ home]

as there are direct Leeds - Huddersfield - Penistone - Barnsley - Sheffield trains) is a Leeds - Sheffield ticket only valid when on such a train

That's right. A Leeds - Sheffield ticket is only valid via Huddersfield when on such a train. See NRCoC Condition 13 in 34D's post #17 above.

is it valid on (separate) Leeds - Huddersfield and Huddersfield - Sheffield services?

It is valid via Hudderfield on through Leeds - Huddersfield - Sheffield trains only. 34D points out above that we do not have agreement on whether a Leeds - Sheffield season ticket is able to be used for a Leeds - Huddersfield journey on a Leeds - Huddersfield - Sheffield through train. My opinion is that it may indeed be used in this way because:

• NRCoC Condition 13 allows the passenger to "travel between the stations shown on the ticket ... in ... a train on which you are able to make your entire journey without changing trains", and
• NRCoC Condition 16 allows the passenger to "start, or break and resume, a journey ... at any intermediate station, as long as the ticket you hold is valid for the trains you want to use", but that "these rights may not apply to some types of tickets for which a break of journey is prohibited", and
• Season Tickets are not a "type of ticket for which a break of journey is prohibited".

 

[34D]

There actually appears to only be one through train from Deighton to Lockwood (none the other way), the 2J47 the 17:43 Leeds-Huddersfield-Sheffield.

My personal view is that you could use your Leeds-Sheffield season on this train and alight in Huddersfield, but (as alluded by john) the only train you can resume on is this train 24 hours later (or 48 etc).

In the real world, I'd be surprised if the ticket wasn't accepted via Huddersfield, as it appears reasonable to me.

 

[tbtc]

That's right. A Leeds - Sheffield ticket is only valid via Huddersfield when on such a train. See NRCoC Condition 13 in 34D's post #17 above. It is valid via Hudderfield on through Leeds - Huddersfield - Sheffield trains only. 34D points out above that we do not have agreement on whether a Leeds - Sheffield season ticket is able to be used for a Leeds - Huddersfield journey on a Leeds - Huddersfield - Sheffield through train. My opinion is that it may indeed be used in this way because:

• NRCoC Condition 13 allows the passenger to "travel between the stations shown on the ticket ... in ... a train on which you are able to make your entire journey without changing trains", and
• NRCoC Condition 16 allows the passenger to "start, or break and resume, a journey ... at any intermediate station, as long as the ticket you hold is valid for the trains you want to use", but that "these rights may not apply to some types of tickets for which a break of journey is prohibited", and
• Season Tickets are not a "type of ticket for which a break of journey is prohibited".

Cheers John

 

[tannedfrog]

For the purposes of this thread, should I infer that:

direct train = through train = without having to change trains

 

[John @ home]

For the purposes of this thread, should I infer that:

direct train = through train = without having to change trains

You are correct that "a through train" in NRCoC Condition 13(a)(i) is defined in NRCoC Condition 13(f) as "one which may be used by a passenger to make their entire journey without changing trains". But the use of the word "direct" in railway fares, tickets and routeing is much less well defined.

I have seen "direct" used to mean "by the shortest route". In other instances, I've seen it used to mean "by a through train". But what does "DIRECT" mean when it is printed below the word "Route" on a railway ticket? I don't know.

Where at all possible, I advise against the use of the word "direct" in railway fares, tickets and routeing matters.