Photography on trains. Illegal?

[Bullfield WEst]

Just read this on Twitter........

EverydaySexism ‏@EverydaySexism 13m

.@btp_uk 1. You CAN report harassment/assault/groping/masturbation/being followed/photographed on transport and it WILL be taken seriously.

I can agree they they are all reprehensible acts except photography. Am I wrong?

Maybe I should report being "snapped" to BTP and see what response I get.

 

[tjl599]

i think it is probably more within the context of how the photo is taken. A photo taken between mates wouldn't be a problem however a photograph taken deliberately of a stranger could and should be seen as a problem. However, the major issue is how do the BTP distinguish between people making deliberate false accusations and real genuine complaints. I suppose a look through the photo album would help to distinguish the truth but thats only if the accused is happy to comply with police requests. However a similar argument could made of accusing people of following. It is quite likely that someone could be heading on a similar journey on the railway network at the same time, how would BTP distinguish this between a co-incident and geniune following?

 

[rwuk]

Just read this on Twitter........

EverydaySexism ‏@EverydaySexism 13m

.@btp_uk 1. You CAN report harassment/assault/groping/masturbation/being followed/photographed on transport and it WILL be taken seriously.

I can agree they they are all reprehensible acts except photography. Am I wrong?

Maybe I should report being "snapped" to BTP and see what response I get.

I think the context is important here... The tweet includes "photographed" along with several clearly inappropriate activities which suggests to me that the intent behind the tweet is "if someone takes photos of *you* and it's making you feel uncomfortable". Of course 140 characters does somewhat limit how precisely a point can be made on twitter..

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Theoretically trains are private property and the property owner can restrict photography if they wish. However, the claim would be between the property owner and the photographer. Whoever was the subject of the photo wouldn't be anything to do with it - unless such photography falls into the realms of harassment or assault.

 

[plymothian]

Take photography in context with the other incidents mentioned and the campaign EverydaySexism, eg if someone takes a picture of your breasts/legs/covertly up your skirt, or if someone is following you and taking your photo it can be considered as stalking.

 

[Tibbs]

I have seen people on the tube trying to get photos up girls' skirts while on a crowded tube. I'd imagine these are the sorts of photos they're talking about, not a photter who finds a particularly rare type of seating fabric and accidentally includes the girl in the next seat.

The problem is so bad in Japan that you can't buy a phone there that doesn't make a noise when a photo is taken.

 

[MK Tom]

Yeah this is why I only do interior shots if people are hidden by seats or the carriage is empty, or frame the shot so it appears as such. Otherwise I'll only use the camera on the train to shoot through the window. With external shots the unavoidable fact is people will get in shot, but the authorities are more then capable of telling apart a picture of a train with someone in shot and a deliberate picture of a person.

 

[quarella]

Not sure of the exact legalities for photography. First 4 are a definitely no. Being followed gets complicated when there is only one route between places but can understand it when you change carriages because someone is making you uncomfortable, and they move too. Photography, I think comes down to the difference between a general shot in a public place. (Is a train a public place as you require a ticket to be there?) and deliberately taking photos of an individual. I do not like having my picture taken although I did consent to a pic of my rear whilst consulting a timetable board at Cambridge station. I do not know what for. On board a train you could ask a guard but they probably won't know and will ask Control who also won't know so to be on the safe side will say no. Could ask anyone who is likely to appear in shot.
It does sadden me that my pictures now are so sterile missing the human element and the fashions of the day. Taking photos of a town hall a few months back a child playing in the fountains walked into frame. Much as it added to the shot I just lowered my camera.

 

[michael769]

eg if someone takes a picture of your breasts/legs/covertly up your skirt, or if someone is following you and taking your photo it can be considered as stalking.

Stalking and harassment requires that the behavior be repeated over a sustained period of time, so taking a one off inappropriate photograph would not be considered as such.

But it is a public order offence to photograph someone in a manner that would reasonably cause them alarm, distress or annoyance. Attempting to take photographs of intimate or "hidden" parts of a person's body without their consent could constitute a sex offence.

Taking photographs of train interiors (that happen to have people in the shot) is perfectly legal, taking photographs of individuals at close proximity (especially if they ask you not to) is a rather different matter. I would certainly urge anyone taking photographs in a confined place like a train or bus to consider the feelings of the people around them.

Trains are public places - note there is a distinction between a public place and public property.

 

[MK Tom]

Should also mention in this discussion that I have found some Flickr users in both rail and bus circles who intentionally photograph girls and share the photos online. It certainly looks to me like the subjects weren't party to it. I find it quite awkward to stumble upon these, they annoy me a bit because it detracts from the rail/bus hobby and damages our reputation as a group. But it also amazes me that these people have no concerns about flagrantly admitting to this sort of behavior in such a public manner.

An example is here - http://www.flickr.com/photos/41696450@N03/6002836945/in/photolist-a9s7hH-aahny2-c6dpuG-awUYLB-7YwnKc-8YnYx3-bWgH7R-coZNFo-bACRk4-ah31ue-cmmWv3-9DxttW-ca8bXm-ctMFbw-aaBCHs-dYxf3f-c6e9Hm-biEbi2-cKA4u7-ab6gqi-9RLeW1-dzjr1G-8Th2GB-9EUHUq-9YXhdW-deFyYi-cDsdyu-cDsdmb-cDsdKU-adueF2-8g1M2q-cDsd7o-b6VxJv-ejcmJM-8sXfTZ-7QpdzF-ae8oWU-8epihM-9hBD1e-8kF7ex-8aUZQr-dq632N-dq5SFx-dq636S-dq5Smk - scroll through his photostream to see other examples.

EDIT - does look like he's stopped doing it more recently. But I've seen it in many other cases.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

An example is here - http://www.flickr.com/photos/41696450@N03/6002836945/in/photolist-a9s7hH-aahny2-c6dpuG-awUYLB-7YwnKc-8YnYx3-bWgH7R-coZNFo-bACRk4-ah31ue-cmmWv3-9DxttW-ca8bXm-ctMFbw-aaBCHs-dYxf3f-c6e9Hm-biEbi2-cKA4u7-ab6gqi-9RLeW1-dzjr1G-8Th2GB-9EUHUq-9YXhdW-deFyYi-cDsdyu-cDsdmb-cDsdKU-adueF2-8g1M2q-cDsd7o-b6VxJv-ejcmJM-8sXfTZ-7QpdzF-ae8oWU-8epihM-9hBD1e-8kF7ex-8aUZQr-dq632N-dq5SFx-dq636S-dq5Smk - scroll through his photostream to see other examples.

He's clearly a rather weird old man.

 

[Bullfield WEst]

Thanks for your thoughts on the matter.. (Platform Flowers? Yes indeed!)
As was stated the inside of a train is private property and we should have permission to photograph there but it is almost accepted as a public area. It is without doubt the "intent" of the action that gives a problem rather than the action itself. Have a nice weekend, I'll be traveling and "photographing from within" the reinstated track at Hatfield & Stainforth. Hope we don't have a downpour tonight :-0

 

[GodAtum]

.@btp_uk 1. You CAN report harassment/assault/groping/masturbation/being followed/photographed on transport and it WILL be taken seriously.

Does masturbation include doing it in the toilet or just in public?

 

[Johnuk123]

The problem is so bad in Japan that you can't buy a phone there that doesn't make a noise when a photo is taken.

I never knew that, but with the Japs well known love of fetishism I can fully understand it.

 

[stut]

Does masturbation include doing it in the toilet or just in public?

Are you implying you're a member of the "half-metre high club"?

 

[Johnuk123]

This thread must be one of the ones Cameron wants blocked.

 

[Morden Via CHX]

An example is here - http://www.flickr.com/photos/41696450@N03/6002836945/in/photolist-a9s7hH-aahny2-c6dpuG-awUYLB-7YwnKc-8YnYx3-bWgH7R-coZNFo-bACRk4-ah31ue-cmmWv3-9DxttW-ca8bXm-ctMFbw-aaBCHs-dYxf3f-c6e9Hm-biEbi2-cKA4u7-ab6gqi-9RLeW1-dzjr1G-8Th2GB-9EUHUq-9YXhdW-deFyYi-cDsdyu-cDsdmb-cDsdKU-adueF2-8g1M2q-cDsd7o-b6VxJv-ejcmJM-8sXfTZ-7QpdzF-ae8oWU-8epihM-9hBD1e-8kF7ex-8aUZQr-dq632N-dq5SFx-dq636S-dq5Smk - scroll through his photostream to see other examples.

What on earth....

 

[callum112233]

Quote:
Originally Posted by MK Tom View Post
An example is here - http://www.flickr.com/photos/4169645...-dq636S-dq5Smk - scroll through his photostream to see other examples.

Bit strange how he calls them 'platform flowers'

 

[Darandio]

What a worrying photostream, quite disgusting really when it is blatantly obvious he is purposefully doing it without permission. I know some photographers will directly take pictures of station crowds etc, but this is seemingly focused only on young girls. hock:

 

[Tibbs]

I never knew that, but with the Japs well known love of fetishism I can fully understand it.

They have rush hour 'women only' carriages in Tokyo as there is a significant problem with groping as well.

The way women deal with it is to grab the offending hand and hold it in the air whilst shouting 'pervert' or equivalent. I was only on a rush hour train three or four times when I was in Tokyo, but saw it twice. Apparently the public shame of being identified is worse than being taken away by the Police.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

Should also mention in this discussion that I have found some Flickr users in both rail and bus circles who intentionally photograph girls and share the photos online. It certainly looks to me like the subjects weren't party to it. I find it quite awkward to stumble upon these, they annoy me a bit because it detracts from the rail/bus hobby and damages our reputation as a group. But it also amazes me that these people have no concerns about flagrantly admitting to this sort of behavior in such a public manner.

An example is here - http://www.flickr.com/photos/41696450@N03/6002836945/in/photolist-a9s7hH-aahny2-c6dpuG-awUYLB-7YwnKc-8YnYx3-bWgH7R-coZNFo-bACRk4-ah31ue-cmmWv3-9DxttW-ca8bXm-ctMFbw-aaBCHs-dYxf3f-c6e9Hm-biEbi2-cKA4u7-ab6gqi-9RLeW1-dzjr1G-8Th2GB-9EUHUq-9YXhdW-deFyYi-cDsdyu-cDsdmb-cDsdKU-adueF2-8g1M2q-cDsd7o-b6VxJv-ejcmJM-8sXfTZ-7QpdzF-ae8oWU-8epihM-9hBD1e-8kF7ex-8aUZQr-dq632N-dq5SFx-dq636S-dq5Smk - scroll through his photostream to see other examples.

EDIT - does look like he's stopped doing it more recently. But I've seen it in many other cases.

That is disgusting, I actually feel sick. He should be careful where he points his lens as someone could turn round and smash his camera.

 

[Darandio]

He should be careful where he points his lens as someone could turn round and smash his camera.

Here's hoping.

 

[rebmcr]

The problem is so bad in Japan that you can't buy a phone there that doesn't make a noise when a photo is taken.

Yep, even the Nintendo 3DS's Europe-specific variant has it, along with a non-optional bright magenta LED whilst the video (and even just the viewfinder) is active.

 

[GatwickDepress]

I never knew that, but with the Japs well known love of fetishism I can fully understand it.

Performing sexual acts on an unwilling participant on public transport is also a common theme in much of their pornography; in both animated and scripted live-action mediums.

Bit strange how he calls them 'platform flowers'

Flowers gradually bloom...which um...well, when you think about it, it makes the picture that bit more disgusting...

 

[grah2702]

That is disgusting, I actually feel sick. He should be careful where he points his lens as someone could turn round and smash his camera.

Also its obvious photo's taken without subjects permission and by putting them on the internet it is classified as publishing them also if any of them is under 16 then that's another can of worms altogether.
He obviously has not thought this through to a likely conclusion as in this day and age authorities take a very dim view of this type of thing.

 

[boing_uk]

Leaving aside the questionable motives of that particular Flickr user, anyone can take a photo of anyone else in or from a public place though - permission of the subject is not required. If one was so inclined, one could - quite legally - take a photo in my street and even if I am in the front garden and in-shot, there is nothing I can legally do to prevent that.

 

[jon0844]

Very true. Photos taken of people in public are not illegal, even if you can look at those pictures above and question the motives.

To change the law would be a very slippery slope, but it's not the first time the police would give the impression that taking any photos is illegal. We're not talking about covert photography or anything here.

 

[tinstaafl]

Those pics would be illegal in Germany. If memory serves, it's illegal to publish pictures of people without their permission, even when taken in a public place.

 

[Hellfire]

Virgin have a published policy which I guess offers good guidance for all stations

They say they welcome enthusiasts taking still or video images at stations. However, they ask photographers not to impede passengers and respect requests from people not wishing to be photographed.

Network Rail have similar guidelines

Both ask photographers not to use flash in case it distractions drivers or dispatch staff.

I have quite often heard tube drivers requesting people not to use flash for pretty obvious reasons.

The problem with the photos above is the context.

 

[transmanche]

I have quite often heard tube drivers requesting people not to use flash for pretty obvious reasons.

Flash photography is specifically banned in the TfL CoCs - again for pretty obvious reasons.