Piccadilly Line trains out of service

[Route115?]

I see that the Piccadilly Line is going through its annual leaf falls tribulations. Could anyone with knowledge let me know:

How many trains are out of service?

When things are likely to get back to normal (is it just a case of re-profiling the wheels or are there deeper issues)?

Any thought of an emergency timetable - maybe a bit late now but it would have been a useful contigency plan?

Will there be any 2024 stock in service next year for the leaf fall season next year? (I've heard late next year mentioned.) Hopefully the 24 stock will have better wheel slide protection - I understand thst S stock is far better at coping with the problem between Rayners Lane & Uxbridge than 73 stock.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

Making a Freedom of Information request may prove fruitful. I'd do it myself but don't want to be on their databases.

Freedom of Information

Freedom of Information

tfl.gov.uk

 

[Dstock7080]

A reduced timetable TTN84/24 is already in operation for the leaf-fall period, introduced 30 September.
This requires 75 trains peak, 66 off-peak.

However due to the flatted wheels and the only lathe at Northfields being inoperative at present, and coupled with the Operator training for 2024 Stock, only 33 trains are currently available.
11 train are stabled at South Harrow awaiting repair.
There has been not service beyond Rayners Lane for 3 weeks now.

The 2024TS should have better wheel slide protection, it is possible some will be in limited service by this time next year.

 

[greatkingrat]

Could they use a lathe on a different lines depot? Maybe Ruislip or Ealing Common?

 

[Mawkie]

How many trains are out of service?

It chages daily (not just due to flats, but also other regular maintenance and to a certain extent, Train Operator availability). Figures quoted above seemed a bit bleak - today only 47 trains available for service according to the fleet rep in his daily report. (Currently 43 trains running).

When things are likely to get back to normal (is it just a case of re-profiling the wheels or are there deeper issues)?

Apparently it can take up to 4 days per train, so expect gaps in service for a while. They do stockpile wheels though

(picture shows a line up of new wheels in Northfields depot)

There are deeper issues, but not for the reason you may think. You may remember the debacle of 2016, where flat wheels decimated the Piccadilly Line service and LUL managers decided it was because drivers suddenly couldn't drive properly after many many years, sometimes decades, of being able to drive without flatting wheels. LUL even mooted ideas of getting the British Transport Police in to invesgate the high incidence of flats as they accused train ops of sabotage! I don't drive trains with flats, and just take them out of service. When I get taken off my first train the next day to be interviewed, that just means yet another train getting cancelled.

LUL produced a report for 2016 wheel flat issue, but it seems to have disappeared.

 

[starlight73]

LUL produced a report for 2016 wheel flat issue, but it seems to have disappeared.

I’ve found this report on the internet archive -

https://web.archive.org/web/20190606130348/http://content.tfl.gov.uk/piccadilly-line-leaf-fall-report.pdf

if it doesn’t open, try opening it on a desktop/laptop computer. (It doesn‘t scroll on my mobile device)

 

[Tubeboy]

Could they use a lathe on a different lines depot? Maybe Ruislip or Ealing Common?

Northumberland Park is being used for some wheelsets.

 

[Mawkie]

I’ve found this report on the internet archive -

Cheers! One of the rumours at the time was that LUL had bought some cheap wheelsets. This report seems to put that rumour to bed at least.

7.8 Discounted factors
 Train design changes, including wheelset material which was the subject of formal metallurgical
assessment in June 2015 to demonstrate compliance with standards following many new
wheelsets being introduced as part of the usual maintenance programme.

 

[thomasheywood]

Why aren’t services being more evenly distributed? Right now there are are gaps of up to 20 minutes followed by three or four trains ‘as normal’.

Why aren’t services being more evenly distributed? Right now there are are gaps of up to 20 minutes followed by three or four trains ‘as normal’.

 

[GFE]

Similar problem as happens to any sudden reduction in available trains ( or drivers) eg central line; There are organisational limitations with changing service patterns and staff rosters.
Introducing an emergency "simple" timetable/trip pattern with shuttles is probably the best short/medium term measure.

 

[starlight73]

I’ve got an email update from TfL about the current timetable and continued reduced service on the Rayners Lane branch. It explains why the leaf fall season was bad this year

We are unable to run any Piccadilly line services between Rayners Lane and Uxbridge until mid-January 2025 due to a shortage of Piccadilly line trains caused by leaf fall causing extensive damage to train wheels.

There will also be a reduced Piccadilly line service between Acton Town and Rayners Lane, with trains running approximately every 15 minutes throughout the day until mid-January.

We are working to restore normal services as soon as possible.

The Metropolitan line will run as normal and continue to serve stations between Rayners Lane and Uxbridge.

We are sorry for the disruption this will cause to journeys. Thank you for your ongoing patience throughout the part closures between these stations in recent weeks.

Conditions this year have been particularly challenging, with leaves staying on trees for longer than usual, before falling rapidly during recent storms. This has meant that despite efforts to manage services during times of particularly high leaf fall, we now have fewer trains available than are needed to run a reliable service.

It also mentions a new timetable, implying that a few 1973TS trains are being withdrawn permanently from Jan 2025 rather than being repaired.

From Monday 13 January 2025, a new timetable will be in operation on the Piccadilly line.

As part of the new timetable, there will be a reduction in Piccadilly line services between Uxbridge and Acton Town stations during weekday peak times. Metropolitan line services between Uxbridge and Rayners Lane are unaffected.

This change is required to accommodate the 94 new Piccadilly line trains, which will begin entering service from late 2025, replacing the existing fleet. The new trains are part of a modernisation programme which will improve journey times, train frequency and reliability as well as making the Piccadilly line more accessible and sustainable.

The existing train fleet is nearly 50 years old, and a number of these trains can no longer be used. This means that from January 2025, we will be required to operate the Piccadilly line with slightly fewer trains. [my bold]

 

[bramling]

I’ve got an email update from TfL about the current timetable and continued reduced service on the Rayners Lane branch. It explains why the leaf fall season was bad this year


It also mentions a new timetable, implying that a few 1973TS trains are being withdrawn permanently from Jan 2025 rather than being repaired.

No one yet seems to be able to answer the question as to why it was possible 10-15 years ago to run a perfectly normal service through the autumn with the self-same trains, yet now it seemingly isn’t. What has changed?

Can’t help but think there’s something dubious about the whole situation.

 

[Horizon22]

No one yet seems to be able to answer the question as to why it was possible 10-15 years ago to run a perfectly normal service through the autumn with the self-same trains, yet now it seemingly isn’t. What has changed?

I imagine its something to do with the trains being sufficiently degraded and because increasingly cost-ineffective to repair with the new stock on the way. They are now 50 years old and probably increasingly difficult to find parts for and no doubt expertise is increasingly lost. High up on the technology bathtub curve.

I doubt there's anything that "dubious". Just age and probably a big difference to even trains that are 35-40 years old.

 

[bramling]

I imagine its something to do with the trains being sufficiently degraded and because increasingly cost-ineffective to repair with the new stock on the way. They are now 50 years old and probably increasingly difficult to find parts for and no doubt expertise is increasingly lost. High up on the technology bathtub curve.

I doubt there's anything that "dubious". Just age and probably a big difference to even trains that are 35-40 years old.

What can realistically be different, though?

* something different about the way leaves fall now compared to 20 years ago?
* a change in the competence of the drivers, or how they are being trained to drive?
* a change to the braking or WSP system?
* a change to the wheels themselves

The only one of those which could really be attributed to the age of the trains is the third one of those, but it would be somewhat remiss if LU can’t properly maintain the braking system.

I’m still sceptical about this TBH.

 

[Mawkie]

I’m still sceptical about this TBH.

Me too and I'm a Pic Line driver!

It does bring me back around to the "cheap wheels" theory, but I debunked that in post #8, so I'm not sure about anything tbh.

There was a rather insightful post on the internal staff social media site that made it's way onto Reddit somehow yesterday - it is a current Pic Line Controller complaining about the state of the line, and he does reiterate the cheap wheel theory. He also mentions the unreliability of "unistar tram style points" which have impacted the service for some time. I'm not sure what tram style points are or how they differ from other points. Are they perhaps built to a different grade than "proper" points?

 

[35B]

What can realistically be different, though?

* something different about the way leaves fall now compared to 20 years ago?
* a change in the competence of the drivers, or how they are being trained to drive?
* a change to the braking or WSP system?
* a change to the wheels themselves

The only one of those which could really be attributed to the age of the trains is the third one of those, but it would be somewhat remiss if LU can’t properly maintain the braking system.

I’m still sceptical about this TBH.

Have London Underground changed the materials used in track work, for example using harder materials in pointwork?

 

[Horizon22]

What can realistically be different, though?

* something different about the way leaves fall now compared to 20 years ago?
* a change in the competence of the drivers, or how they are being trained to drive?
* a change to the braking or WSP system?
* a change to the wheels themselves

The only one of those which could really be attributed to the age of the trains is the third one of those, but it would be somewhat remiss if LU can’t properly maintain the braking system.

I’m still sceptical about this TBH.

You might be sceptical and I’m no engineer but trains that are 50 years old are naturally going to have more issues and eventually reach a point of deep unreliability.

This isn’t unique to the London Underground or even rail transport - everything starts to reach an end of life eventually.

No doubt there’s also some cost-cutting too and it’s more likely to be a grey area with a mix of factors, not just one.

 

[Dstock7080]

What can realistically be different, though?

* a change to the braking or WSP system?

I’m still sceptical about this TBH.

A few years ago when this routine problem first occurred Fleet decided to isolate the Rheo brake on ‘73 Stock during the leaf-fall period to minimise the chance of the wheels locking up on minimum application.
It was a change of technique for the drivers, who had to adjust their driving style and change again when the Rheo was cut back in again.
The blanket 30mph maximum speed imposed in outside sections tends to alleviate this somewhat.

 

[Bikeman78]

You might be sceptical and I’m no engineer but trains that are 50 years old are naturally going to have more issues and eventually reach a point of deep unreliability.

This isn’t unique to the London Underground or even rail transport - everything starts to reach an end of life eventually.

No doubt there’s also some cost-cutting too and it’s more likely to be a grey area with a mix of factors, not just one.

That might explain declining reliability but wouldn't explain why wheel flats are worse. Is the 73 notably less reliable in general than 10 years ago? I seem to recall that it was one of the best fleets.

 

[rebmcr]

That might explain declining reliability but wouldn't explain why wheel flats are worse. Is the 73 notably less reliable in general than 10 years ago? I seem to recall that it was one of the best fleets.

Perhaps the well-known TfL staff retention issues have also affected depot performance?

A concerted effort by a skilled workforce in previous years might have been able to keep abreast of an autumn surge of maintainence tasks.

At some point if a team that's able to achieve 90% of the performance comes up against 95% of the demand, they will inevitably slip behind — and that will compound day-on-day until there is a completely unmanagable backlog. A small, relatively unnoticable margin suddenly (yet plausibly) leading to a massive cliffdrop of a result.

 

[MaidaVale]

unistar tram style points

These are a brand of off-the-shelf points from a German company that were installed around 15 years ago that were originally designed for tram networks rather than heavy rail metro services like LU. These have been the cause of the various issues we've had with points in the Northfields area in recent times, notably 21pts which were intermittently failing for a few months earlier on in the year.

 

[mrmartin]

What can realistically be different, though?

* something different about the way leaves fall now compared to 20 years ago?
* a change in the competence of the drivers, or how they are being trained to drive?
* a change to the braking or WSP system?
* a change to the wheels themselves

The only one of those which could really be attributed to the age of the trains is the third one of those, but it would be somewhat remiss if LU can’t properly maintain the braking system.

I’m still sceptical about this TBH.

I skimmed a few pages of the pdf report and it said that vegetation management was massively below standard in 2016.

With the current tfl budget woes has vegetation management been put on the back burner massively?

 

[LU_timetabler]

I think the issue was those 2 storms that blew off all the leaves in one or 2 goes, rather than a lighter, spread leaffall.

 

[Mawkie]

With the current tfl budget woes has vegetation management been put on the back burner massively?

No noticibly. It's like a scorched earth trackside, with nothing at all allowed 2-3m from the track, and no tree canopy allowed. But, again, long before 2016 the trees on the Uxbridge branch used to join forming a literal tunnel of foliage in places without issue, so I'm not convinced it's the sole answer.

You might be sceptical and I’m no engineer but trains that are 50 years old are naturally going to have more issues and eventually reach a point of deep unreliability.

I don't have figures to hand, but I think the 73 Stock is one of the most reliable. Certainly every train (indeed, either end of every train too) will have different driving and braking characteristics, much like when you've taken your car to the garage to have the clutch fixed or the brakes replaced and it feels a bit different for few miles.

So for example leaving Cockfosters and going down the hill towards Oakwood in the wet, at the temporary speed restriction speed of 30mph, and applying the weakest Service 1 brake application can still result in the wheels locking up. The technique used to ameliorate a slide is Cadence Braking, where the brake is taken on and off before the rheostatic brakes apply, much like a very rudimentary ABS system. (If you're sitting near the driver you will be able to hear them using the traction brake controller in that on and off fashion.) That's fine if the driver is used to the particular foibles of the train. However each train is different, and some rheos come on sooner than expected, and some brakes 'hang on' a bit after being released - both of which can catch a driver out. I'm not sure if I would call them age related faults exactly, but I suppose in the purest sense they are.

In summary, there is an issue, and LUL have mitigation in place - the extra leaf fall training each driver has, the speed restrictions, the tree management, etc - but if that mitigation is not sufficient, they need to increase lathe capacity and turn around the trains quicker. There are mobile lathes, which the Pic has used in the past, but I would imagine there is a substantial cost to that.

How likely is it that LU will make significant investment in wheel lathes when the issue may resolve itself with the introduction of the new stock?

 

[bramling]

No noticibly. It's like a scorched earth trackside, with nothing at all allowed 2-3m from the track, and no tree canopy allowed. But, again, long before 2016 the trees on the Uxbridge branch used to join forming a literal tunnel of foliage in places without issue, so I'm not convinced it's the sole answer.


I don't have figures to hand, but I think the 73 Stock is one of the most reliable. Certainly every train (indeed, either end of every train too) will have different driving and braking characteristics, much like when you've taken your car to the garage to have the clutch fixed or the brakes replaced and it feels a bit different for few miles.

So for example leaving Cockfosters and going down the hill towards Oakwood in the wet, at the temporary speed restriction speed of 30mph, and applying the weakest Service 1 brake application can still result in the wheels locking up. The technique used to ameliorate a slide is Cadence Braking, where the brake is taken on and off before the rheostatic brakes apply, much like a very rudimentary ABS system. (If you're sitting near the driver you will be able to hear them using the traction brake controller in that on and off fashion.) That's fine if the driver is used to the particular foibles of the train. However each train is different, and some rheos come on sooner than expected, and some brakes 'hang on' a bit after being released - both of which can catch a driver out. I'm not sure if I would call them age related faults exactly, but I suppose in the purest sense they are.

In summary, there is an issue, and LUL have mitigation in place - the extra leaf fall training each driver has, the speed restrictions, the tree management, etc - but if that mitigation is not sufficient, they need to increase lathe capacity and turn around the trains quicker. There are mobile lathes, which the Pic has used in the past, but I would imagine there is a substantial cost to that.

How likely is it that LU will make significant investment in wheel lathes when the issue may resolve itself with the introduction of the new stock?

Sounds like the real problem is LU’s current management philosophy, which is essentially “bury head in sand, and hope problem goes away”. Just like everything else, such as the Central and Jubilee fleet issues, Highgate depot shed roof, Bakerloo Line fleet accessibility, Northern Line signalling performance, etc etc etc.

 

[fIIsion]

Does not help the line is down to one wheel lathe which had recently broken down. It’s taking longer to rectify the flats issue.

 

[Russel]

Why do LUL not undertake a little more vegetation control over the summer, cut the trees back in problem areas?

Yes, it would cost money, but it would be a lot cheaper than having to fix the wheels of 20+ trains!

 

[ThameslinkUser]

Why do LUL not undertake a little more vegetation control over the summer, cut the trees back in problem areas?

Yes, it would cost money, but it would be a lot cheaper than having to fix the wheels of 20+ trains!

See post 24

 

[RacsoMoquette]

Yesterday, I was travelling on the Piccadilly Line from Piccadilly Circus, I was planning to travel right through to Cockfosters. However the service was utterly awful! No trains between Rayners Lane and Uxbridge caused extreme overcrowding on the westbound platform, and all the trains to Heathrow were completely full to the rafters, the frequency was disgraceful at Piccadilly Circus at around 14:00hr the was a nine minute gap between a train to Northfields and a train to Heathrow, and then a further six minute gap for the next train to Heathrow! As you can probably tell, the station staff were becoming extremely exasperated with people not standing behind the yellow line!

When we finally managed to squeeze on to a train (Eastbound to Arnos Grove) the car we travelled on felt just so sluggish, it laboured along very slowly (Yes the Piccadilly is a very slow jog between Earls Court and Kings Cross) but is not normally is this bad! the train had very long dwell times due to the "Severe Delays" of the line. Which just meant the train continued to fill up! Eventually we had to scrap our idea to ride to Cockfosters at Bounds Green and take Great Northern in to Moorgate from Bowes Park! The Piccadilly was a joke compared to the Bakerloo that we had travelled to Harrow & Wealdstone earlier that day! Apart from the heavily graffitied and window etched 1972TS they did sound healthier and more powerful that the 1973TS, a feature I always notice when transitioning from the Bakerloo to the Piccadilly!

 

[Russel]

See post 24

I've seen in, but it's clearly not enough.