Please help a despairing mum !

[Sarah B]

My 18 year old son was recently sent a letter saying he had travelled without a ticket. The letter was actually sent to an old adress where we haven’t resided for over 10 years and his name was spelled incorrectly.I questioned my son who claims it is someone pretending to be him, sadly I don’t believe him. Without my consent he wrote an email back claiming it wasn’t him and they couldn’t have any proof because his name and address were wrong.

I can tell my My son is now a bit worried but still denying it was him as he knows I will throttle him. He is still saying they are bluffing and keeps saying they can’t get cctv footage from BTP for a minor fare evasion offence and that they couldn’t of seen any real identification as they had his details wrong. I get the impression they haven’t seen any real ID and thats why he is still confident. He also believes too much time has elapsed .

My son has been in lots of trouble since his dad left us and I’m really despairing at the idea he could have to go to court and get a criminal record. Furthermore i can definitely not afford to Pay a huge fine in his behalf .

I’m hoping if anyone can tell me if BTP will provide cctv footage in a case of fare evasion ?

I’m literally losing sleep over this and am really overwhelmed with two younger children as well. Thanks for any help anyone can offer .

 

[LCC106]

Welcome to the forum. Whilst I can’t help personally you have come to the right place. Please be assured that there will be some excellent contributors to your post.

You may like to attach a copy of the original letter with personal details covered up so members can comment. If unable to do so, can you give the jist of what has been written, any technical wording/jargon included etc.?

 

[Gloster]

There are some very wise people on this forum, of which I am not one, who will give some very good advice as to how to deal with the various possibilities, but it may take a day or two for all to see this post: Hadders is one of the experts. It is not unknown for people to give other people’s adresses, but it is also not unknown for the young to fail to understand how serious things can get if they get out of hand, although this can normally be prevented. The one thing that it is important that he, or you on his behalf, do not make any false or misleading statements. It is also important that he is honest with advisors on this forum about what happened: they can’t give good advice if they don’t have an accurate understanding of the situation. However, as mentioned above, it is best to avoid making incriminating statements or giving details that could identify his case.

 

[robbeech]

The direct answers are YES, they can ask rail operators or where appropriate the BTP for CCTV footage where an offense has been committed. It's more likely that the footage is held by the operator of the station rather than the BTP.
The address they have on file isn't particularly relevant as you have managed to receive the letter. He shouldn't be further penalised for delays to responses due to them having an incorrect address, and additional delays to a response over the holiday period are usually accepted without question.

I suggest he does as asked, send a signed photo, that way they will be able to identify that someone else was there talking to the inspector on the day.
One thing that is worth remembering is that if they still believe it was your son that committed this offense then the penalty can be quite substantial and the more he denies it the worse it can get. However, it's worth pointing out that if this were to end up in court, it would be for TIL to prove they were there and committed this offense where as outside court they do not have to prove anything and can essentially ask you to pay whatever fee they decide.

TIL are known for getting things wrong, and there are examples on here, but we only see a small handful of cases, with a bias towards when things are disputed, the vast majority are justifiable cases.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Welcome to the forum. I'll assume that, however strong the temptation is, you won't actually throttle your son and so it's only really the railway and the courts that he has to worry about.

The railway (which for the moment includes TIL as they work for Chiltern) are in time to take him to court: in practical terms, they have six months from when an alleged offence took place to ask the court to start a prosecution. So since the alleged offence was 10 October 2022, the railway have until April 2023 to start court action.

If your son is telling the truth, and he didn't fare dodge in the way that the railway say that he did, then it would make sense to send in the photo which has been asked for. The railway aren't into wasting their money, so they'd only ask for a photo if it would let them understand whether they'd picked up the right person or not.

If (as you suspect) your son isn't telling the truth, then the question is whether the best option is to keep quiet and hope the problem will go away, or to engage and minimise any punishment at the end of the process. My personal inclination is to say that 'honesty is the best policy' but here even without taking a moral stand I think that it's also the best thing to do. The railway are already in contact with your son, and experience tells us that in general Chiltern and TIL don't let go in cases like this. If your son doesn't co-operate with them, then this case will end up in court, and unless he offers a defence which convinces the court then he will be convicted, and receive a fine and a criminal record. I should at this point say that while a fine isn't good (it's money which your son may find difficult to pay) a conviction for fare dodging isn't the end of the world: although there are jobs and careers which need to know about any court convictions, a lot of these need to know about the conviction but won't automatically refuse to recruit someone just because they made one mistake about train tickets.

So (assuming that your son did do this) he should get in touch with the railway. @Hadders offers some excellent advice which they may well be along to give quite soon, but you can see the general gist of it in other threads: essentially your son should admit his mistake, show what he's going to do to make sure he never does it again, and offer to pay the train fare he should have paid and the costs that the railway has incurred. Again, I have to say that Chiltern and TIL tend to play hardball on this one, so he may have to write to apologise a number of times - and even so, he may end up in court.

Essentially, you need to get your son to understand that the railway won't go away, so not co-operating will lead to the worst possible result: co-operating may not make things better but it can't possibly make things worse. So it's in his best interests to tell the truth.

 

[tspaul26]

The letter from TIL stated the offence was committed on 10th October 2022

Can your son account for his whereabouts on this day? Is there any evidence to corroborate his account?

 

[furlong]

How much information about the time and location have they provided so far?
What evidence can your son find to prove he was nowhere near? Any card transactions that day for example that place him elsewhere? Or people he was with who could attest to this without lying?

Asking for a photo only makes sense if they really do already have their own good quality picture to compare it with so wouldn't have to rely on witnesses. (They are not independent investigators and you wouldn't show a witness a photograph of the accused, then hold an identification parade!)

 

[ashkeba]

Asking for a photo only makes sense if they really do already have their own good quality picture to compare it with

Are TIL allowed to bluff to obtain a confession, like in the USA? Are BTP?

 

[Kilopylae]

Are TIL allowed to bluff to obtain a confession, like in the USA? Are BTP?

It is not "bluffing" (lying) to ask for a photograph, whatever the recipient of that request might infer, so there's no reason that it wouldn't be allowed.

Regardless, this is not of much help to the OP, as her son won't want to antagonise TIL.

 

[Haywain]

Worth noting that at the very least the train company will have a description of the person they stopped which is why they will have asked for a photo when 'mistaken identity' has been claimed.

 

[Jimbo13]

It sounds like scare tactics to me... what is to stop people or her son from just providing a photograph of someone else? And do Marylebone station really keep cctv footage of every fare evasion case for 2 months before its even disputed? @Hadders

 

[class68fan]

Ticket inspector might have bodycam evidence kept

 

[Darandio]

It sounds like scare tactics to me... what is to stop people or her son from just providing a photograph of someone else? And do Marylebone station really keep cctv footage of every fare evasion case for 2 months before its even disputed?

Are you the son by any chance? Seems strange for someone to randomly stumble over such a thread on the internet then pass comment in a very similar manner to what the son was apparently quoted as saying in the opening post.

 

[WesternLancer]

I doubt it is going to be CCTV from the train they would use actually (not always that clear anyway - certainly wasn't when a helpful BTP officer tried to trawl it to find a person who committed a hate crime that my partner and I were victims of anyway - and I got to see the CCTV!) - more likely some sort of bodycam footage taken at the 'interview' when caught without a ticket, or a description written down by the staff member who did the interview with the fare evader concerned.

Anyway - son needs to take this seriously as per the decent advice above.

Good luck to the OP - head back here for more help and advice as and when needed - people here can advise the OP and their son how best to engage with this whether the son admits to lying or indeed if the son is indeed not the ticket evader in question.

Best photo for the son to send will of course be one on a passport of driving license as it is proof of id.

Not engaging will mean son will be taken to court due to the conveyor belt nature of this process now (albeit at wrong address) and found guilty in absence anyway. And with this being TIL who play hardball on cases anyway I'd say this is a 100% certainty if engagement does not happen.

Also - seems strange that a random person dodging their fare knew the son's grandfather's former address and gave their name and that address....but then this may be one of the reasons mum (OP) does not fully believe son's initial response.

 

[AlterEgo]

It’s important to know what, if any, ID process was undertaken at the time of the stop. He should cooperate honestly with the process as it stands though; it would be irresponsible to advise any other course of action.

 

[357]

If your son has Google maps on his phone check the timeline feature for that day. It will show if he went to London or not.

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

This is an unfortunate situation you find yourself in and two potential ways to proceed:

1. If your son did get caught then he should be truthful and tell them it was him. It is likely that Chiltern/TIL will agree to an out of court settlement although it might be a little harder due to the fact that he gave them incorrect information to start with

2. If your son is adament that he didn't get caught then he should provide a photo and as much information as possible. Based on your hunch and what I've read in this thread it appears unlikely that another person has impresonated your son. If your son persists with this line then TIL will ultimately prosecute and your son will be found guilty in his absence. It may well be that nothing comes of it for a period of time but eventually someone is going to knock on Grandad's door seeking payment of a fine. That is when things will start to get tricky. two and two will be put together and it will all catch up with your son. What started as a straightforward railway ticketing matter then becomes a lot more serious.... Railway ticketing offences aren't like parking or speeding tickets - it's criminal law.

It must be tempting for you to contact TIL yourself and explain what has happened but I don't think they will speak to you because your son is over 18. I do hope you can get your son to see sense.

Do keep us updated and come back to us if you need any further advice.

 

[some bloke]

denying it was him as he knows I will throttle him.

Could it be that telling him you won't be angry* if he did do it and now tells you the truth would make it easier for him to tell the truth to the company?

* if you won't

(I'm not presuming he's guilty, though for one thing it's puzzling why if he's innocent he hasn't sent a photo).

 

[Egg Centric]

Was your son 18 at the time of the alleged offence?

Controversial view: Personally I'd let him do whatever stupid thing he wants, he's an adult, and the stakes are pretty low tbh. However you must under no circumstances whatsoever bail him out.

One of three things will happen:

1. He's innocent so happy days
2. He's not innocent but gets away with it; either learns more expensive lesson later OR learns lesson after this close shave and shapes up now
3. He's not innocent but gets "done" - learns lesson with roughly appropriate consequences

Important: The above is on assumption that TIL is in touch with him, not BTP. Also I do not have children (although hoping to have some soon) so my views may be overly harsh for modern parenting.

 

[WesternLancer]

The letter was actually sent to his grandads house where we haven’t resided for over 15 years and his surname was spelt incorrectly.

apols for asking ref what seems a minor point but unclear if grandad still lives there (or if say it was a former address)? - issue being that as the railway will have this on a conveyor belt to court if the photo does not bear out that it is someone else, they won't just drop the case as if it was some sort of TV court room drama style 'they can't proove it' - the railway will simply put in a court case of someone by that name giving that address is a fare evader, the court will find that person guilty (in their absence) and eventually some bailiffs will turn up at grandad's house looking for the court fine money owed. I doubt that is what you or grandad want to happen / deal with.

If grandad does not live there any more, whoever does has sent the letter on to the correct address already, so I would think when the court bailiffs turn up at the address, they will send them on in the same direction to you/your sons address.

He is still saying they are bluffing and keeps saying they can’t get cctv footage from BTP for a minor fare evasion offence and that they couldn’t of seen any real identification as they had his details wrong. I get the impression they haven’t seen any real ID and thats why he is still confident.

They don't need to do that I fear (unless your son is planning to produce and pay for a solicitor to go to the court on the day and argue his case that it is not him) - all they need to do is demonstrate that a person of the name and address given was stopped without a valid ticket.

He also believes too much time has elapsed .

It is often cited on here that the railway have up to 6 months to bring it to court. TIL will be mindful of that timeline and will likely not miss it I fear.

Good luck with all this - you obviously have your hands full with parenting responsibilities in what is not an easy situation.

 

[Jimbo13]

Are you the son by any chance? Seems strange for someone to randomly stumble over such a thread on the internet then pass comment in a very similar manner to what the son was apparently quoted as saying in the opening post.

I wish I was 18!!! ha ha im only here as I'm going to court for a similar offence and am doing some digging

 

[Gloster]

I wish I was 18!!! ha ha im only here as I'm going to court for a similar offence and am doing some digging

If you have a separate case and want advice, I suggest that you start a new thread as no two cases are exactly the same and good advice for one might be bad for another. But do take into account the warnings in some of the early posts here.

 

[island]

Furthermore i can definitely not afford to Pay a huge fine in his behalf .

One other thing to note as well as the good advice above is that as your son is an adult, any fine that may eventually become due will be for him to pay himself. You have no legal responsibility to settle it (although you may well feel morally or otherwise responsible to).

 

[Starmill]

One other thing to note as well as the good advice above is that as your son is an adult, any fine that may eventually become due will be for him to pay himself. You have no legal responsibility to settle it (although you may well feel morally or otherwise responsible to).

Indeed. And if the son is fined, but in the short term lacks the means to pay it, they can apply to the Court to pay in instalments. If the son hasn't got the ability to cover the instalments then they would likely be eligible to be seen for free debt advice by a charity, for example Citizens Advice will probably be able to offer free signposting: https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/debt-and-money/help-with-debt/dealing-with-urgent-debts/paying-a-court-fine To put it another way, the son can be assisted with practical help instead of money.

To the OP, I understand that it can seem overwhelming, but please do try to keep in perspective that even in the worst case scenario this is very unlikely to be life-limiting long term.