Point-to-point rail season tickets within London

[Dima]

I am wondering what are the rules regarding the availability of point-to-point season tickets within London, as they may be substantially cheaper than a zonal Travelcard or cap. By playing around with the NRE website so far I think I’ve figured out that:

1. Point-to-point season tickets are available for most journeys done solely on National Rail (with the exception below), though if one of the ends is within Zone 1 it will usually be valid either for London Terminals or London Thameslink.
2. Point-to-point season tickets are NOT available for the London Northwestern and Southend journey on the West Coast mainline or West London line within London as (presumably) it can be performed fully on London Overground? However, it’s possible to buy a season ticket between Denmark Hill and Peckham Rye or between Denmark Hill and Queens Road Peckham (and for some strange reason the latter is cheaper).
3. Point-to-point season tickets are NOT available for the journeys that are done fully on LO, with a Denmark Hill - Peckham Rye - Queens Road Peckham exception listed above.
4. Point-to-point season tickets are available for the journeys that combine LO and NR, e. g. Hackney Wick - Putney as discussed in this thread.
5. Point-to-point season tickets are NOT valid on London Underground.
6. Point-to-point season tickets are NOT valid on the EL core (Paddington - Abbey Wood) but are available for journey on the outer sections, which can be combined with LO (so we can have Hackney Wick - Maryland).
7. I am not sure if EL Paddington and Liverpool Street stations are treated the same as the corresponding mainline stations for the season ticket purposes, especially the latter, as coming there from the east would involve stopping at Whitechapel.

I have several questions regarding this:

• Are my observations correct? Am I missing something?
• Is there somewhere a comprehensive guide explaining availability and pricing of such tickets within London?
• Does it matter if a season ticket is on paper or loaded onto in ITSO Smartcard provided by one of the NR TOCs, especially if using it at the LO ticket barriers?
• How are EL Paddington and Liverpool Street stations treate?
• (A mostly rhetorical one) - why is it so complicated? I would’ve never ever guessed that if, e. g. I travel a lot on the LO that getting a season ticket to some NR station far away can save me money, if it wasn’t for this thread.

Thank you!

 

[Alex365Dash]

Is there somewhere a comprehensive guide explaining availability and pricing of such tickets within London?

If you’re looking for prices of National Rail point-to-point season tickets, BRFares is your friend here.

If you don’t want a weekly, click the ticket and you can input your desired duration for the price of a monthly, period or annual season.

Does it matter if a season ticket is on paper or loaded onto in ITSO Smartcard provided by one of the NR TOCs, especially if using it at the LO ticket barriers?

It doesn’t - TfL (both LO and LU) ticket barriers accept ITSO smartcards as well, just scan it at the barrier as you would an Oyster or contactless card.

How are EL Paddington and Liverpool Street stations treate?

I am not sure if EL Paddington and Liverpool Street stations are treated the same as the corresponding mainline stations for the season ticket purposes, especially the latter, as coming there from the east would involve stopping at Whitechapel.

Paddington and Liverpool Street Low Level are treated the same as High Level provided you haven’t gone through the core. Tickets to London Terminals will be accepted at both, but are not valid between Paddington and Liverpool Street exclusive.

TfL claim (as per policy and the TfL Conditions of Carriage) that break of journey in the Elizabeth line core (Paddington - Abbey Wood) isn’t permitted, although the actual TfL Conditions of Travel state this only applies to single and return paper tickets:

5.1 Printed tickets
5.1.2 You must use your printed ticket(s) in accordance with these conditions. Printed tickets issued for use on London Overground and Elizabeth line are issued in accordance with the National Rail Conditions of Travel unless otherwise stated. Note that break of journey is not permitted with single and return tickets on the Elizabeth line between Paddington and Abbey Wood

Contractually as per the National Rail Conditions of Travel Condition 16.2, you are permitted to break your journey on National Rail services (of which the Elizabeth line is one) unless your ticket says so (or if you’re crossing London on a LU or DLR service but the Elizabeth line is not a Tube line despite how TfL like to pretend it both is and isn’t for ticketing purposes) and season tickets permit break of journey, but good luck persuading Whitechapel gateline if you ever want to exit/enter there on a National Rail season ticket to London Terminals.

(A mostly rhetorical one) - why is it so complicated? I would’ve never ever guessed that if, e. g. I travel a lot on the LO that getting a season ticket to some NR station far away can save me money, if it wasn’t for this thread.

- Point-to-point season tickets are NOT available for the journeys that are done fully on LO, with a Denmark Hill - Peckham Rye - Queens Road Peckham exception listed above.
- Point-to-point season tickets are available for the journeys that combine LO and NR, e. g. Hackney Wick - Putney as discussed in this thread.

It appears that where London Overground sets the point-to-point fares (or sometimes the Rail Delivery Group, who are RDG and formerly ATOC, for journeys entirely on LO, considering they price LO journeys Clapham Junction - Surrey Quays but also most non-LO/EL fares wholly in London) between two stations and the journey is entirely in Zones 1-6, they decide not to set point-to-point season ticket fares. A cynic would say it’s probably because it’s in TfL’s interests for passengers to buy a Travelcard instead.

Point-to-point season tickets are available for most journeys done solely on National Rail (with the exception below), though if one of the ends is within Zone 1 it will usually be valid either for London Terminals or London Thameslink.

This is true where the origin/destination is in the London Terminals or London Thameslink fares group with some exceptions - a few examples are Carpenders Park to Euston has season tickets to London Euston rather than London Terminals as the fare is set by London Overground as well as Croydon to Victoria having season tickets to both London Terminals and London Victoria because…GTR.

Point-to-point season tickets are NOT available for the London Northwestern and Southend journey on the West Coast mainline or West London line within London as (presumably) it can be performed fully on London Overground? However, it’s possible to buy a season ticket between Denmark Hill and Peckham Rye or between Denmark Hill and Queens Road Peckham (and for some strange reason the latter is cheaper).

Further to the point earlier, both of the journeys you give also have RDG as the fare setter and have other operators as well as LO. Denmark Hill to Peckham Rye has both Southeastern and Thameslink, while Peckham Rye to Queens Road Peckham has Southern.

Pricing teams from the railway industry also read these forums - I suspect the discrepancy in price you mention won’t last much longer…

Point-to-point season tickets are NOT valid on London Underground.

Correct, except for inter-available routes where National Rail tickets are accepted on London Underground services and vice versa i.e. a Carpenders Park to London Euston season is accepted on the Bakerloo line between Harrow & Wealdstone and Queen’s Park.

Point-to-point season tickets are NOT valid on the EL core (Paddington - Abbey Wood) but are available for journey on the outer sections, which can be combined with LO (so we can have Hackney Wick - Maryland).

This is the position TfL hold and is their own policy (except through EL journeys to/from Stratford and beyond to/from Liverpool Street are also valid but not for break of journey at Whitechapel) as per accepting these.

As the Elizabeth line is a National Rail operator, if you can find a point-to-point season ticket that has the Elizabeth line core as a permitted route and doesn’t have an operator or route restriction preventing it (Abbey Wood to Farringdon isn’t valid as its route is via City Thameslink), it is valid.

Note a ticket being valid doesn’t mean the same thing as TfL actually accepting the ticket - whilst the contractual entitlement exists, TfL‘s policy is that these tickets aren’t valid, although for the likes of Abbey Wood to St Pancras route not Underground, where both gatelines will accept it…

…Oh, and I should mention, obviously TfL don’t set point-to-point seasons in the core.

 

[FiloFax]

If you’re looking for prices of National Rail point-to-point season tickets, BRFares is your friend here.

Thanks for this link to BRFares, it's brilliant

 

[Watershed]

@Alex365Dash has very comprehensively covered most aspects. I thought I'd just try and answer your last question:

(A mostly rhetorical one) - why is it so complicated? I would’ve never ever guessed that if, e. g. I travel a lot on the LO that getting a season ticket to some NR station far away can save me money, if it wasn’t for this thread.

Essentially this is the legacy of the historic fare structure (which would have included point to point season tickets for almost all journeys where using NR services for the entire journey was logical) being modified with the introduction of Oyster. Paper single and return fares were massively increased in price in order to push people towards using Oyster, and TfL scrapped most of the point to point fares that they priced at the time. However, most of the ATOC-set point to point seasons remained in place.

TfL (via LO) generally only control fares for journeys that are entirely on their own services, but as with everything there are exceptions and edge cases.

 

[Dima]

Thanks @Alex365Dash and @Watershed!

Do you think there is a risk that TfL will soon scrap point-to-point season tickets for journeys that can only be done on EL (like Ilford - Stratford), like they did on LO?

If they take over other NR routes within London, is it likely that they will do it there too?

 

[RJ]

• (A mostly rhetorical one) - why is it so complicated? I would’ve never ever guessed that if, e. g. I travel a lot on the LO that getting a season ticket to some NR station far away can save me money, if it wasn’t for this thread.

It’s as complicated as you wish to make it. Most people ask for a price between two stations and you either get one price between those stations or advised to get a Travelcard which makes it pretty simple.

By all means you can burrow into the fares terms and routing data to get extra value, but this is entirely voluntary. Not that I’m criticising this as I empathise with that sort of thing but it’s not complicated to get a price for a ticket!

As for point to point seasons on the Elizabeth Line core, I’d hazard a guess that anybody who finds these tickets will keep tight lipped about it as there is no good outcome from publicising them.

 

[miklcct]

Contractually as per the National Rail Conditions of Travel Condition 16.2, you are permitted to break your journey on National Rail services (of which the Elizabeth line is one) unless your ticket says so (or if you’re crossing London on a LU or DLR service but the Elizabeth line is not a Tube line despite how TfL like to pretend it both is and isn’t for ticketing purposes) and season tickets permit break of journey, but good luck persuading Whitechapel gateline if you ever want to exit/enter there on a National Rail season ticket to London Terminals.

This is the position TfL hold and is their own policy (except through EL journeys to/from Stratford and beyond to/from Liverpool Street are also valid but not for break of journey at Whitechapel) as per accepting these.

TRU112 mentioned that the gateline at Whitechapel is configured to accept a break of journey for certain London Terminals tickets, for example, Ipswich to London Terminals.

 

[MikeWh]

Do you think there is a risk that TfL will soon scrap point-to-point season tickets for journeys that can only be done on EL (like Ilford - Stratford), like they did on LO?

If they take over other NR routes within London, is it likely that they will do it there too?

No and No.

There was considerable outcry when TfL took over the South London Line from Southern and abolished all the point-to-point season tickets. In response to that, DfT made a condition of the LO/EL takeover of services from Liverpool Street that point-to-point seasons would remain.

 

[miklcct]

No and No.

There was considerable outcry when TfL took over the South London Line from Southern and abolished all the point-to-point season tickets. In response to that, DfT made a condition of the LO/EL takeover of services from Liverpool Street that point-to-point seasons would remain.

TfL's policy is to reduce the use of paper tickets, and encourage the use of PAYG. What was the problem when the point-to-point season tickets were abolished, given that the PAYG fare within zone 2 is exceptionally good value that a season ticket is unlikely to give any savings even travelling for 5 days per week out and return, unless all of them are in peak hours?

 

[Watershed]

TfL's policy is to reduce the use of paper tickets, and encourage the use of PAYG. What was the problem when the point-to-point season tickets were abolished, given that the PAYG fare within zone 2 is exceptionally good value that a season ticket is unlikely to give any savings even travelling for 5 days per week out and return, unless all of them are in peak hours?

Perhaps this comes as a surprise to you, but most people commute during peak hours...

 

[miklcct]

Perhaps this comes as a surprise to you, but most people commute during peak hours...

I will use all means to avoid peak hours if I need to commute, including arranging my sports training before / after work, going to the supermarket immediately after work before taking the train home, or, in case of commuting on the Watford DC line, cycle to the line instead of taking a connection to get to the line.

Using Clapham Junction - Hackney Central as an example, there is a season ticket priced at £15.50 / 7 days between Putney and Hackney Wick (are there any cheaper season ticket within the zone for a fairer comparison), which the break even point is 9 peak journeys or 10 off-peak journeys in one week. If on any of these days you have to go into Zone 1, it will nullify the saving as using PAYG the Zone 1-2 cap will be hit.

 

[MikeWh]

TfL's policy is to reduce the use of paper tickets, and encourage the use of PAYG. What was the problem when the point-to-point season tickets were abolished, given that the PAYG fare within zone 2 is exceptionally good value that a season ticket is unlikely to give any savings even travelling for 5 days per week out and return, unless all of them are in peak hours?

A travelcard season ticket costs more than a rail-only season ticket for the similar zones, especially if only one zone is required. This meant people found their commute costs increasing as the rail-only season did provide a saving over 10 peak PAYG fares.

You need to face the fact that not everyone is prepared to go to the nth degree just to shave a few pence of their travel.

 

[JonathanH]

I will use all means to avoid peak hours if I need to commute, including arranging my sports training before / after work, going to the supermarket immediately after work before taking the train home, or, in case of commuting on the Watford DC line, cycle to the line instead of taking a connection to get to the line.

You might, and indeed others might, but not everyone has that option, particularly working parents and those with other caring responsibilities.

 

[NSE]

I will use all means to avoid peak hours if I need to commute, including arranging my sports training before / after work, going to the supermarket immediately after work before taking the train home, or, in case of commuting on the Watford DC line, cycle to the line instead of taking a connection to get to the line.

Using Clapham Junction - Hackney Central as an example, there is a season ticket priced at £15.50 / 7 days between Putney and Hackney Wick (are there any cheaper season ticket within the zone for a fairer comparison), which the break even point is 9 peak journeys or 10 off-peak journeys in one week. If on any of these days you have to go into Zone 1, it will nullify the saving as using PAYG the Zone 1-2 cap will be hit.

Have you ever considered your travel habits might be in the minority? Refusing to double back, reading the ticket rules to the Nth degree. Great if you have the time and that works for you, but not everyone wants to.

I commuted within London (not including zone 1) and the paper ticket season ticket cost me £24 a week. PAYG was roughly £7 a day (I forget the exact figure). That put it around £11 more expensive. Plus I would often break my journey to gym on the way home. So that put the price up as it became two separate journeys. Also, it had validity to numerous places I would often socialise and shop on the weekend. All of this for £24 a week. It also meant I had the flexibility that if it was raining I could jump on the train to hop to the shops when I would have walked otherwise. For £24, in all honesty, when the price went up from £22.80 to £24 (or something like that), I didn’t bat an eye lid. In the grand scheme of things, it was still fantastic value.

 

[miklcct]

I commuted within London (not including zone 1) and the paper ticket season ticket cost me £24 a week. PAYG was roughly £7 a day (I forget the exact figure). That put it around £11 more expensive.

£7 a day for travel without zone 1? That's so expensive. TfL fares within zones 2-6 are known to be cheap!

The routes which have the National Rail season tickets removed are all on TfL tariff, so if your route was taken by London Overground you would have likely benefitted from the cheap PAYG fare TfL provides.

 

[Dima]

There was considerable outcry when TfL took over the South London Line from Southern and abolished all the point-to-point season tickets. In response to that, DfT made a condition of the LO/EL takeover of services from Liverpool Street that point-to-point seasons would remain.

Thank you, it’s reassuring.

This makes me wonder even more why there are no point-to-point season tickets on the WCML and WLL within London, even between stations that are servers by NR? Has it always been the case, or were they scrapped when LO took over the Watford DC line?

 

[bakerstreet]

£7 a day for travel without zone 1? That's so expensive. TfL fares within zones 2-6 are known to be cheap!

The routes which have the National Rail season tickets removed are all on TfL tariff, so if your route was taken by London Overground you would have likely benefitted from the cheap PAYG fare TfL provides.

Do you enjoy a railcard discount, on your Oyster, by any chance?

This would make Oyster singles much more likely to win against the flexibility of a season.

Not everyone has this benefit, but it sounds like you may do based on your calculations.

 

[Watershed]

£7 a day for travel without zone 1? That's so expensive.

It might be expensive by your standards, but most people would consider £7 a day for travel quite cheap.

TfL fares within zones 2-6 are known to be cheap!

I think you are vastly overestimating the percentage of people who are aware of there being different Oyster fare scales, let alone that TfL-scale fares are cheaper. In fact, I'd wager that most people don't even know what fare they pay on Oyster/contactless. They just see a daily or auto top-up amount on their bank or card statement, or manually top up their Oyster card when it gets low.

 

[miklcct]

It might be expensive by your standards, but most people would consider £7 a day for travel quite cheap.

It is definitely expensive by Hong Kong standard where single fares are cheap, or even Eastern / Central European standard where monthly tickets are cheap.

In those places, £30 can normally pay for a month of urban travel under typical commuting pattern.

I think you are vastly overestimating the percentage of people who are aware of there being different Oyster fare scales, let alone that TfL-scale fares are cheaper. In fact, I'd wager that most people don't even know what fare they pay on Oyster/contactless. They just see a daily or auto top-up amount on their bank or card statement, or manually top up their Oyster card when it gets low.

However it's impossible not to notice that hundreds of £ comes out of the bank account and soon I'll work out how much I have travelled and to cut the cost of travel.

 

[Watershed]

It is definitely expensive by Hong Kong standard where single fares are cheap, or even Eastern / Central European standard where monthly tickets are cheap.

In those places, £30 can normally pay for a month of urban travel under typical commuting pattern.

You have made such comparisons on many occasions, and nobody is denying that British public transport is indeed more expensive compared to those places. But that is not the comparison that the average person is likely to make, and so I don't think it serves any practical purpose in relation to this discussion of point to point season tickets within London.

However it's impossible not to notice that hundreds of £ comes out of the bank account and soon I'll work out how much I have travelled and to cut the cost of travel.

I think it is fair to say that you are much more concerned about the cost of travel than the average person.

 

[miklcct]

I think it is fair to say that you are much more concerned about the cost of travel than the average person.

Not only the cost of travel, but also the cost of other things as well and I consistently find ways to cut spending in every possible aspect of my life without reducing the consumption amount.

For example, I now very rarely buy groceries in any supermarkets other than Aldi and Lidl, and I look for mobile plans every few months to see if there are any cheaper plans for me to switch to.

Every pound saved mean that my saving can last longer before it runs out.

 

[NSE]

Not only the cost of travel, but also the cost of other things as well and I consistently find ways to cut spending in every possible aspect of my life without reducing the consumption amount.

For example, I now very rarely buy groceries in any supermarkets other than Aldi and Lidl, and I look for mobile plans every few months to see if there are any cheaper plans for me to switch to.

Every pound saved mean that my saving can last longer before it runs out.

Whilst I appreciate your point of view, quite simply, I can’t be bothered to spend time trawling through mobile phone plans when there is a world to be explored, pints to be drunk, football to be watched and mates to spend time with. Don’t get me wrong, I’m fortunate to live in the first world and have the luxury of choosing what phone plan I want (of course, I don’t throw money away, but I’m also happy to pay a few quid here and there for convenience).

Regarding my £7 spend a day, I appreciate Hong Kong may be cheaper. Unfortunately I don’t live and commute there. So the cost of a commute there could be a £1 a month and it would make zero difference to me.

As for the route, I no longer commute it due to changing jobs. So it’s all largely academic. If I still was, I wouldn’t wish for TFL prices to come in if meant loosing the weekly ticket. The weekly season ticket was much better suited to my needs than the contactless operation. In fact, my last job employed lots of Aussies and Kiwis who regularly switched to the paper ticket when they asked why I wasn’t touching in and out and I explained as it worked for them too.

(Yes I could have bought a monthly and saved more but it was a school job and more often than not a school holiday meant I would’ve had periods of non-commuting. A weekly was easier)

 

[RJ]

Not only the cost of travel, but also the cost of other things as well and I consistently find ways to cut spending in every possible aspect of my life without reducing the consumption amount.

For example, I now very rarely buy groceries in any supermarkets other than Aldi and Lidl, and I look for mobile plans every few months to see if there are any cheaper plans for me to switch to.

Every pound saved mean that my saving can last longer before it runs out.

The easiest way to save cash is not to spend it. So many things can be paid for by other means which cost next to nothing to generate. I’ve been paying a round figure of 0 for my mobile plan which has unlimited data, minutes and calls for years now.