Pollution on UK newest trains

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stuu

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It's interesting that this study doesn't include homes.

I read somewhere that there are a lot of very deadly particulates at loose in the home.
Yes, gas cookers are pretty bad, but it even the act of cooking food itself, by any means, releases particulates and other chemicals which don't do you any good. Raw food is the way forward. Or not
 
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Trainbike46

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Yes, gas cookers are pretty bad, but it even the act of cooking food itself, by any means, releases particulates and other chemicals which don't do you any good. Raw food is the way forward. Or not
or you could ventilate the kitchen more? and switching from gas to electric (induction) cooking helps too
 

norbitonflyer

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Yes I saw this on twitter. To the twitter I added a reference from my professional publication Chemistry World published by the Royal Society of Chemistry. The article is almost as equally damning.



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That article is a different study, made two years ago in Denmark, and contradicts the one in the Guardian

The Guardian "Passengers on trains pulled by diesel locomotives are more exposed to fumes when sitting in rear rather than front carriages, the researchers found",

RSC "Those sitting on carriages being pulled by a diesel engine, especially close to the engine, breathe in a much larger dose of diesel fumes". "‘I would recommend to passengers, particularly those susceptible to exposure, such as asthmatics, to sit as far as possible from the engine when the train is being pulled,’ Evans advises. ‘When the train is being pushed the air quality is a lot better everywhere.’"

Can anyone provide a link to the actual RSSB study? As far as I can see none of the trains described are loco-hauled except the HST on EMR. Sitting on top of the engine of course beings you much closer top the source of the fumes.
 
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MarlowDonkey

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RSC "Those sitting on carriages being pulled by a diesel engine, especially close to the engine, breathe in a much larger dose of diesel fumes".
How many trains are pulled (or pushed) by a diesel engine in 2021? I can think of the remaining HSTs, Chiltern loco hauled, DRS services if still running, the sleeper to Cornwall and some rail tours. That's if they are using the term "engine" to mean locomotive. If they are referring to underfloor engines that's everything else that isn't electric, including new bi-modes. Passengers wouldn't really know where the engines or their exhausts actually were..
 

norbitonflyer

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How many trains are pulled (or pushed) by a diesel engine in 2021? I can think of the remaining HSTs, Chiltern loco hauled, DRS services if still running, the sleeper to Cornwall and some rail tours.
Plus the Scottish sleepers north of Edinburgh, and the Transpennine Nova 3s.
 

Robbies

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How many trains are pulled (or pushed) by a diesel engine in 2021? I can think of the remaining HSTs, Chiltern loco hauled, DRS services if still running, the sleeper to Cornwall and some rail tours. That's if they are using the term "engine" to mean locomotive. If they are referring to underfloor engines that's everything else that isn't electric, including new bi-modes. Passengers wouldn't really know where the engines or their exhausts actually were..
I presume DRS services is Trans-Pennine Nova3 sets and Transport for Wales class 68 with MK4 coaches?
 

MarlowDonkey

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I presume DRS services is Trans-Pennine Nova3 sets and Transport for Wales class 68 with MK4 coaches?
I was actually thinking of those services with Class 37s and Mk2s that used to pop up in parts of the country from time to time. The Welsh and Nova3 trains are additional examples.
 

p1ash

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I presume the fresh air intake for the AC is the grill(s) usually seen on the center of the carriage (e.g., above window level - near the door indicator light on 185s)?

If so, it would be interesting to see the air quality on class 185s - given the proximity of the exhaust stack to the fresh air intake - unlike the normal exhaust stack location at the end of the carriage?

The fresh air AC appears to switch off in Standedge tunnel (GPS?), but you can still smell diesel fumes momentarily as you enter the tunnel.
 

Domh245

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I presume the fresh air intake for the AC is the grill(s) usually seen on the center of the carriage (e.g., above window level - near the door indicator light on 185s)?

If so, it would be interesting to see the air quality on class 185s - given the proximity of the exhaust stack to the fresh air intake - unlike the normal exhaust stack location at the end of the carriage?

The fresh air AC appears to switch off in Standedge tunnel (GPS?), but you can still smell diesel fumes momentarily as you enter the tunnel.

Air intakes are usually at roof level - the centre grille on the 185s doesn't appear on any other Desiro stock, so seems it would be unlikely to be part of the (main) HVAC system. Some units (Derby -stars come to mind) make use of bodyside grilles, but I would think they're exhaust rather than intake, on the basis of you'd rather have one AC evaporator to condition the incoming air than multiple spread throughout the vehicle. I would think(/hope) that the HVAC units on the roof are configured to ensure that the fresh air intake side is not on the same side as the exhaust!
 

bramling

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Yes we do. They are a bit dull, and the lack of a buffet annoys me, but the legroom is much better, they don't creak horribly round corners and they have sped up station calls by miles (anecdotally, but that's all any of this is)

The bit about the station calls is quite relevant, by the final years of HSTs the slam doors were quite notorious in Cornwall. Not for what they were, but because everyone would have had experiences where their journey took forever because of people failing to close doors at stations. No doubt this was simply a case of people losing familiarity with slam doors - rewind a couple of decades and it was completely ingrained in people to close doors behind them.

But what has been gained in quicker dispatch has been lost in comfort. I can’t claim to be a fan of the IEP. Lots of little niggles which all add together. Plus the build quality is dire.
 

Trainbike46

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Can anyone provide a link to the actual RSSB study? As far as I can see none of the trains described are loco-hauled except the HST on EMR. Sitting on top of the engine of course beings you much closer top the source of the fumes.
I linked it on the previous page, it's here:

 
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How many trains are pulled (or pushed) by a diesel engine in 2021? I can think of the remaining HSTs, Chiltern loco hauled, DRS services if still running, the sleeper to Cornwall and some rail tours. That's if they are using the term "engine" to mean locomotive. If they are referring to underfloor engines that's everything else that isn't electric, including new bi-modes. Passengers wouldn't really know where the engines or their exhausts actually were..
Not forgetting the Greater Anglia bimodes, which, although not traditional locomotives, would probably go into the first category for this context.
 

5n0w5had0w

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Indeed, which is yet another reason why electrification is so important.

That said, for myself, I'd happily have done with it and sit in a 205 thumper at speed with all the droplights down.
I've been reading about the electrification of rail – except it's about the locomotives carrying batteries and actually powering themselves. I rather like that idea, and the technology is there, apparently. Doesn't it make more sense to do it that way? I mean, I love the idea of vehicles taking their power from overhead lines or tracks, but it's so much simpler if they can travel under their own, er …
 

yorksrob

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I've been reading about the electrification of rail – except it's about the locomotives carrying batteries and actually powering themselves. I rather like that idea, and the technology is there, apparently. Doesn't it make more sense to do it that way? I mean, I love the idea of vehicles taking their power from overhead lines or tracks, but it's so much simpler if they can travel under their own, er …

There are three issues:

Can you get enough electricity out of the battery
Can you get enough electricity into the battery in a short enough time
Can you get enough stuff to make the battery in the first place

It seems that the above might be possible for these to be achievable for a small number of routes, but for most of the network, the overhead lines and third rails are what delivers enough electricity.
 

507020

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There are three issues:

Can you get enough electricity out of the battery
Can you get enough electricity into the battery in a short enough time
Can you get enough stuff to make the battery in the first place

It seems that the above might be possible for these to be achievable for a small number of routes, but for most of the network, the overhead lines and third rails are what delivers enough electricity.
A battery can deliver more power (with energy in the form of electricity) than the 3rd rail or indeed a Diesel engine. Of course manufacturing one capable of long distances and accommodating it somewhere in a train is a lot harder.
 

Ken H

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A battery can deliver more power (with energy in the form of electricity) than the 3rd rail or indeed a Diesel engine. Of course manufacturing one capable of long distances and accommodating it somewhere in a train is a lot harder.
not forgetting the weight of the battery and its control systems. Basic Newtonian physics says force = mass * acceleration. Increase the mass and you either lose acceleration (slower trains) or use more force so more energy used.
The basic electric vehicle, be it tram with overhead, trolleybus or straight electric train has to be the most efficient by a long way. Thats what we should be striving for. Not adding more stuff on to trains to avoid civils.
 

Irascible

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not forgetting the weight of the battery and its control systems. Basic Newtonian physics says force = mass * acceleration. Increase the mass and you either lose acceleration (slower trains) or use more force so more energy used.
The basic electric vehicle, be it tram with overhead, trolleybus or straight electric train has to be the most efficient by a long way. Thats what we should be striving for. Not adding more stuff on to trains to avoid civils.
Drifting a bit OT, but the infrastructure needed to support an acceleratung ( or climbing, the same adding of energy ) train is rsther heavier than that needed to maintain it's speed. Batteries help cope with that sort of burst power requirement, it's whether the delivery can cope that decided if they go by the supply or on the train, Would certainly help 3rd rail areas under strain if the units had acceleration-booster battery packs they could charge smoothly ( and regen into )... not sure if 25kv areas really need it onboard - how much loss is there in the OHL these days?

And of course you can deal with no supply at all for a bit, as a bonus. One of the things about regen is you get a large chunk of the energy you put in to accelerate the train back when it brakes, so while there's still a bit more friction loss ( and a bit more wear on the track ) it's not as big a problem as adding more weight to a diesel is.
 
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yorksrob

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24Grange

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How many trains are pulled (or pushed) by a diesel engine in 2021? I can think of the remaining HSTs, Chiltern loco hauled, DRS services if still running, the sleeper to Cornwall and some rail tours. That's if they are using the term "engine" to mean locomotive. If they are referring to underfloor engines that's everything else that isn't electric, including new bi-modes. Passengers wouldn't really know where the engines or their exhausts actually were..

Everything in Devon & Cornwall is diesel ( apart from heritage steam). Nothing would move otherwise :)
 

61653 HTAFC

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I can only speak for myself on this, but I must either have a poor sense of smell or an unusually strong constitution because I can't recall ever being able to smell diesel fumes from inside a diesel powered train:- either on modern things like 195s and 802s, or older stuff like HSTs, 141s and Heritage units.

As much as the railway shouldn't be complacent about its environmental impact, I'm instinctively suspicious of the motivation behind this story. It smells (ironically) a bit like something from the road lobby.
 

Ken H

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I can only speak for myself on this, but I must either have a poor sense of smell or an unusually strong constitution because I can't recall ever being able to smell diesel fumes from inside a diesel powered train:- either on modern things like 195s and 802s, or older stuff like HSTs, 141s and Heritage units.

As much as the railway shouldn't be complacent about its environmental impact, I'm instinctively suspicious of the motivation behind this story. It smells (ironically) a bit like something from the road lobby.
god. the oily fug in modernisation plan DMU's was rank. And some big stations were no better. Just need one badly tuned loco ticking over.
 

Wilts Wanderer

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I can only speak for myself on this, but I must either have a poor sense of smell or an unusually strong constitution because I can't recall ever being able to smell diesel fumes from inside a diesel powered train:- either on modern things like 195s and 802s, or older stuff like HSTs, 141s and Heritage units.

As much as the railway shouldn't be complacent about its environmental impact, I'm instinctively suspicious of the motivation behind this story. It smells (ironically) a bit like something from the road lobby.

You certainly got diesel fumes inside an HST that was held at a signal approaching Birmingham New Street in the tunnels. Strictly against the rules but a frequent occurrence.
 

The exile

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I can only speak for myself on this, but I must either have a poor sense of smell or an unusually strong constitution because I can't recall ever being able to smell diesel fumes from inside a diesel powered train:- either on modern things like 195s and 802s, or older stuff like HSTs, 141s and Heritage units.

As much as the railway shouldn't be complacent about its environmental impact, I'm instinctively suspicious of the motivation behind this story. It smells (ironically) a bit like something from the road lobby.
Although nothing like as bad as the second coach on a 50-hauled network express, there is definitely a whiff of diesel exhaust in the turbos (166 at least). In the current circumstances I’m glad that I’m still able to smell it - but I’m sure it’s not doing me any good!
 

SolomonSouth

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Although nothing like as bad as the second coach on a 50-hauled network express, there is definitely a whiff of diesel exhaust in the turbos (166 at least). In the current circumstances I’m glad that I’m still able to smell it - but I’m sure it’s not doing me any good!
I find there is a whiff with all DMUs/locos.
 

jackot

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Yes, on SWR sprinters there is definitely a strong smell both in the vestibules and at the station - when a few are leaving at Salisbury, there is a noticeable smog. Same goes with the GWR turbos.
 
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