Portable Oxygen Tanks

[StormingNorman]

Morning!

Had a quick scan around about this but couldn't come up with an answer.

Are portable o2 tanks of any size + description permitted on trains?

Ta

 

[Bletchleyite]

Up to each TOC if I'm reading this right:

http://www.theyworkforyou.com/debates/?id=2010-03-17a.928.0

 

[DarloRich]

Morning!

Had a quick scan around about this but couldn't come up with an answer.

Are portable o2 tanks of any size + description permitted on trains?

Ta

is this relating to diving equipment or health related equipment?

 

[StormingNorman]

is this relating to diving equipment or health related equipment?

Health related

 

[Ash Bridge]

This may not be relevant today but in the summer of 1997 we took an elderly relative from Manchester to Exeter (and back) who was confined to a wheelchair and also needed to travel with portable oxygen supplies, when booking the trip using the Virgin XC's (as it was then) dedicated Journeycare line I explained about the oxygen requirement and was told that it would be no problem, both journeys were fine with the relative (my grandfather) traveling in the disabled space in 1st class, with his portable oxygen tanks beside him wheeled on & off by staff at each end of the journey, I don't know if yours is a similar situation but if so try contacting the Journeycare dept. of the relevant TOC and see what the position is today.

 

[ainsworth74]

I can't find anything specific to ban or allow oxygen tanks for medical purposes in either the Byelaws or the NRCoC. So I think best course of action would be to check with any TOCs involved. Assuming it's just a small portable tank rather than a huge one I can't see any TOCs taking issue with it and even if it was a large one I imagine their main concern would be ensuring that the passenger or a companion are capable of moving it themselves without help.

 

[tsr]

I've seen small ones before on trains and to be honest neither myself nor anyone else really gave it a second thought apart from ensuring they were treated with the same respect and assistance as the passenger and their other belongings. I have never been instructed to refuse carriage or given any special instructions at all.

 

[DarloRich]

in relation to diving cylinders ( which for the purposes of this point are air not oxygen) i am told the cylinders have to be empty and "pre approved" by the TOC.

Simply ring up the relevant department and most seem generally happy to carry them.

 

[Murph]

in relation to diving cylinders ( which for the purposes of this point are air not oxygen) i am told the cylinders have to be empty and "pre approved" by the TOC.

Yeah, SCUBA cylinders will NEVER be 100% O2, as oxygen is toxic above around 2 bar (100% O2 below 10m depth would pass this threshold). Simple diving cylinders are normally just compressed clean air, but very high pressure (up to around 3500 psi or 240 bar). You do also get "mixed gas" cylinders for technical diving, but the risk from them is really only from the same very high pressure.

A damaged/ruptured SCUBA cylinder can explode pretty much like a bomb, with very high overpressure in the immediate vicinity and the possibility of high velocity shrapnel. Air escaping through a pinhole leak on them (or the valve) is high risk, and can pass through the skin and outer tissues into the major blood vessels, potentially resulting in a fatal air embolism. Empty, on the other hand, and they are just a big lump of heavy metal with a high quality valve attached.

 

[Requeststop]

This may not be relevant today but in the summer of 1997 we took an elderly relative from Manchester to Exeter (and back) who was confined to a wheelchair and also needed to travel with portable oxygen supplies, when booking the trip using the Virgin XC's (as it was then) dedicated Journeycare line I explained about the oxygen requirement and was told that it would be no problem, both journeys were fine with the relative (my grandfather) traveling in the disabled space in 1st class, with his portable oxygen tanks beside him wheeled on & off by staff at each end of the journey, I don't know if yours is a similar situation but if so try contacting the Journeycare dept. of the relevant TOC and see what the position is today.

I don't think you'd be given pure oxygen. Most probably you were given oxygen enriched air usually up to about 23.5% Oxygen. This would be totally safe for travel by rail. An atmosphere at above 23.5% gives very fierce combustion. In the Oil and Gas Industry, confined space entry is restricted to a band between 19.5% and 23.5% Oxygen and all gas detectors will alarm at both levels on oxygen content.

 

[185]

I threw off one off SSP's staff some years ago for bringing a large CO2 cylinder on and trying to hide it under a seat. I think it was for their fizzy drinks dispensers and was being shipped to another station who had run out.

Safe or not, I'd rather take my chances with a subsequent complaint letter. :P

 

[Lockwood]

I've carried a CD cylinder on an SWT service in the past with no one from staff complaining or commenting. One passenger voiced concern that the bag was secured or not, by the people with the power to kick me off were fine.

 

[OneOffDave]

According to the Medical Gas Data Sheet for medical O2, it's supplied as oxygen that's a mimimum of 99.5% pure. It won't be mixed with air or other gases in the cylinder as that would be in breach of the MHRA licence for the product if it's marked as O2.

 

[edwin_m]

You do also get "mixed gas" cylinders for technical diving, but the risk from them is really only from the same very high pressure.

So if you want to take a helium mix cylinder you just need to squeak to the TOC's enquiry line?

 

[hounddog]

I can't find anything specific to ban or allow oxygen tanks for medical purposes in either the Byelaws or the NRCoC. So I think best course of action would be to check with any TOCs involved. Assuming it's just a small portable tank rather than a huge one I can't see any TOCs taking issue with it and even if it was a large one I imagine their main concern would be ensuring that the passenger or a companion are capable of moving it themselves without help.

Wouldn't any ban be overridden by Disability Discrimination laws in any case?

I don't think any company in this day and age would be so stupid as to refuse to carry a passenger who needed to carry an oxygen tank to breathe. And as for 'ensuring that the passenger or a companion are capable of moving it themselves without help' would you apply that to a lone wheelchair user? Terrible attitude to disabled travellers there.

 

[Murph]

Wouldn't any ban be overridden by Disability Discrimination laws in any case?

I don't think any company in this day and age would be so stupid as to refuse to carry a passenger who needed to carry an oxygen tank to breathe. And as for 'ensuring that the passenger or a companion are capable of moving it themselves without help' would you apply that to a lone wheelchair user? Terrible attitude to disabled travellers there.

The DDA and other accessibility legislation does not create an unlimited obligation. It also does not create an automatic exemption to the need to ensure safety.

 

[najaB]

Wouldn't any ban be overridden by Disability Discrimination laws in any case?

Not if the ban exists for legitimate safety reasons.

I don't think any company in this day and age would be so stupid as to refuse to carry a passenger who needed to carry an oxygen tank to breathe.

No, but they would be within their rights to enforce any reasonable safety restrictions - for example they may allow a (made up numbers) 5kg cylinder but not a 100kg one.

And as for 'ensuring that the passenger or a companion are capable of moving it themselves without help' would you apply that to a lone wheelchair user? Terrible attitude to disabled travellers there.

I think that may have been poorly worded. A passenger who is entitled to assistance - your lone wheelchair user - would still be entitled to assistance, however the TOC wouldn't be able to guarantee to provide assistance above and beyond what would normally be available.

 

[Lockwood]

I don't think you'd be given pure oxygen. Most probably you were given oxygen enriched air usually up to about 23.5% Oxygen. This would be totally safe for travel by rail. An atmosphere at above 23.5% gives very fierce combustion. In the Oil and Gas Industry, confined space entry is restricted to a band between 19.5% and 23.5% Oxygen and all gas detectors will alarm at both levels on oxygen content.

The cylinder will contain "100%" O2.
If you are being given a lower concentration, this is achieved through the mask. You can get a 28%/40%/60%/100% mask, and the mixture is determined by holes in the mask and the flowrate of the oxygen through it. 28% being done at 2-4 LPM; a higher flowrate would increase the concentration a bit. The 100% mask has a reservoir bag attached to it which fills with O2 from the cylinder and valves designed to make you breathe in from the mask and exhale entirely out of it.
Most people that are travelling on oxygen would be on nasal specs, this is at 1-4 LPM and is a nominal 28%, with a lot of it able to escape back out of the nose, get diluted a lot with normal air and diluted by mouth breathing. You would not get a user regularly on high flow oxygen.

 

[ainsworth74]

I think that may have been poorly worded. A passenger who is entitled to assistance - your lone wheelchair user - would still be entitled to assistance, however the TOC wouldn't be able to guarantee to provide assistance above and beyond what would normally be available.

Exactly what I was getting at thank you

 

[Murph]

I can't find anything specific to ban or allow oxygen tanks for medical purposes in either the Byelaws or the NRCoC. So I think best course of action would be to check with any TOCs involved. Assuming it's just a small portable tank rather than a huge one I can't see any TOCs taking issue with it and even if it was a large one I imagine their main concern would be ensuring that the passenger or a companion are capable of moving it themselves without help.

Having done a little bit of research, I believe the following legislation is the key to determining what is prohibited and allowed:

The Carriage of Dangerous Goods and Use of Transportable Pressure Equipment Regulations 2009

HSE: Carriage of dangerous goods
Regulations concerning the International Carriage of Dangerous Goods by Rail (RID 2015) (although this is "international", the current CDG legislation appears to defer to it for domestic rail transport as well)

I believe that all compressed gas cylinders fall under the CDG legislation, but that there are exemptions for private individuals carrying limited quantities. I'm deliberately not going to offer an opinion on what size/quantity can be carried by a private individual under the exemptions, as it seems to be a quite complex subject. It would seem prudent to talk to the appropriate qualified people within a TOC prior to travelling on their services, to reach agreement and clear understanding on the acceptable limits.

N.B. Anyone carrying compressed gas by road, rail, or ship in contravention of the CDG regulations is committing a serious criminal offence. TOCs do not have the power to allow exceptions to the CDG regulations, and would be criminally liable if they allowed someone to transport something in contravention of the regulations.

 

[Emblematic]

The HSE have advised that the carriage of medical oxygen and Entenox sets in cars by medical staff would be exempt from ADR, provided that reasonable steps are taken to secure the load and prevent leaks. This same exemption would apply to an oxygen user, and the RID regulations for rail have almost identical wording to ADR for road in this respect; specifically 1.1.3.1(b) explicitly exempts equipment which happen to contain dangerous goods as a part of the equipment. The key point in this exemption is that that the equipment is in use, or ready for immediate use; it is not simply goods being transported.
What is clear is that the decision to forbid carriage of this equipment would be down to the operator's policy alone; there is nothing in law to prohibit the use of medical oxygen on public transport, and the operator must take equal care not to fall foul of disability discrimination regulations.