Portsmouth to Dover Priory CDR

[Alex C.]

I'm thinking of going to Dover tomorrow and found a fare on BRFares which is £20.90 - off peak day return via Barnham - seemed like a good deal (here)

I've tried to find this fare on VTEC booking and I can occasionally get it to show up (e.g 13th Feb) - but not tomorrow. I'm looking at trains after 9am.

Also, as the ticket isn't Southern only, and it's routed via Barnham, not 'not via London' is there any reason I couldn't use it on services via London Victoria - after all I'll have to travel via Barnham to get there.

VTEC suggested itinerary is

Portsmouth to London Victoria
London Victoria to Dover

Which to me (as someone who doesn't know the fares system inside and out) would be meeting the Via Barnham route restriction.

What am I missing? Is this a special promotional fare or does 'via Barnham' not mean what it says on the tin? If it is valid but I can't get a booking site to issue it, can I just request it at a ticket office?

 

[Romilly]

On the VTEC site, once you have the fares and times showing, click on "Show slower routes" and then opt for "Valid only via Barnham". This will show the £20.70 fares for tomorrow.

 

[Alex C.]

Brilliant, thank you!

 

[Kite159]

You are aware that buses replace trains from Folkstone to Dover due to the sea wall damage?

 

[Alex C.]

You are aware that buses replace trains from Folkstone to Dover due to the sea wall damage?

Yes, the outbound itinerary avoids the bus (Portsmouth->Havant->Clapham Junction->Wimbledon->Herne Hill->Bromley South->Dover) but the return does include a short bus journey. I can live with that

 

[embers25]

Yes, the outbound itinerary avoids the bus (Portsmouth->Havant->Clapham Junction->Wimbledon->Herne Hill->Bromley South->Dover) but the return does include a short bus journey. I can live with that

Whilst technically this route is valid as it passes through Barnham (not sure if routeing guide agrees) I'm pretty sure Southeastern guards from Bromley will object as the expected route is via Hastings and Ashford.

 

[MikeWh]

Whilst technically this route is valid as it passes through Barnham (not sure if routeing guide agrees) I'm pretty sure Southeastern guards from Bromley will object as the expected route is via Hastings and Ashford.

They can object, but they can't refuse travel - unless they want their employers to get a lot of grief. If the passenger has an itinerary which proves that the route restriction has been followed then the very worst I would expect them to do is issue a TIR.

 

[embers25]

They can object, but they can't refuse travel - unless they want their employers to get a lot of grief. If the passenger has an itinerary which proves that the route restriction has been followed then the very worst I would expect them to do is issue a TIR.

Totally agree Mike and there "should" be no issue at all as it's perfectly valid BUT whilst Southern will question being off route if they encounter revenue protection on TL or Southeastern things may be different looking back at how Railjet was treated in the past and how I've been treated in the past on Hi-Speed.

 

[Paul Kelly]

What am I missing? Is this a special promotional fare or does 'via Barnham' not mean what it says on the tin? If it is valid but I can't get a booking site to issue it, can I just request it at a ticket office?

Booking engines won't allow it as the VIA BARNHAM route has secret restrictions, only in the electronic data, that disallow travel via Ebbsfleet International, Stratford International or London Group.

 

[NSEFAN]

Booking engines won't allow it as the VIA BARNHAM route has secret restrictions, only in the electronic data, that disallow travel via Ebbsfleet International, Stratford International or London Group.

Does this mean that travel via those places is actually valid and you just can't get the journey planners to present it? Or does it mean that it's not actually valid but that information is not made public?

 

[Paul Kelly]

I think it is valid in accordance with NRCoC Condition 13 (d), which says route restrictions will be shown on the ticket.

 

[sarahj]

While your route may be valid in a technical sense, you could be asking for trouble, esp with the trip from Clapham to Wimbledon. It does seem to be a very slow roundabout route. The simple way is Portsmouth to Brighton, Brighton to Ashford, Ashford to the coast. Another way thats allowed is Portsmouth to Redhill, (tho' now you need to change at Three Bridges/Gatwick for Redhill), Redhill to Tonbridge, then Tonbridge to the coast.

 

[paul1609]

A lot of these tickets are actually printed Route" Polegate/Edenbridge" so you might well encounter difficulties especially on South West Trains.

 

[Kentish Paul]

Yes, the outbound itinerary avoids the bus (Portsmouth->Havant->Clapham Junction->Wimbledon->Herne Hill->Bromley South->Dover) but the return does include a short bus journey. I can live with that

What is the routing Havant to Clapham Junction? The direct route does not go through Barnham. My Ashford International to Dorchester (Via Barnham) tickets are only valid route Edenbridge/Polegate i.e Tonbridge-Redhil- Horsham-Barnham or Hastings-Lewes-Brighton-Barnham and along the coast.

 

[CyrusWuff]

I think this may be an example that "breaks" the Routeing Guide...ATOC have previously stated that, where a ticket has an explicit geographical route, you work out routes from the origin to that routeing point, then from there to the destination.

In this case, Barnham is an "associated station" rather than a routeing point, with RPs of Ford Group (Ford and Littlehampton) and Havant...Oops.

Logically, we should do fares checks based on a Portsmouth - Barnham journey and a Barnham - Dover journey, which gives us the following:

Portsmouth Stns - Barnham Anytime Day Single (SDS) is £10.60
Ford - Portsmouth Stns SDS is £10.80
Littlehampton - Portsmouth Stns SDS is £11.60
Havant - Portsmouth Stns SDS is £4.30

Therefore, Havant is the only appropriate routeing point for Portsmouth - Barnham.

Looking at Barnham - Dover Priory:

Barnham - Dover Priory SDS routed Not Via London (that being the closest fare to that for the through journey from Portsmouth) is £21.20
Ford - Dover Priory SDS routed Not Via London is £21.20
Littlehampton - Dover Priory SDS routed Not Via London is £21.20
Havant - Dover Priory SDS routed via Barnham is £21.20

Whilst Havant meets the fares check, it gets ruled out as it could only be used by doubling back, leaving Ford Group as the only appropriate routeing point.

Permitted routes between Portsmouth and Havant can be found on map CW which, unsurprisingly, just shows the direct route.

Permitted routes between Ford Group and Dover Priory can be found on maps CW+KA, CW+RA, LB+DE, LB+FA, LB+FC, LB+RA, LP+AR, SC+DE, SC+FA, SC+FC, SC+RA an SN+VB+AR.

But, if we look at the journey as a whole, Portsmouth is a group routeing point and Dover Priory is a routeing point, so no fares check would be needed.

Permitted routes between Portsmouth Group and Dover Priory (not via London) can be found on maps CW+KA, CW+RA, LP+AR, PD+DE, PD+FA, PD+FC, PD+RA and SN+VB+AR.

Answers on a postcard as to why CW on its own isn't shown as valid, given it features Portsmouth - Brighton - Eastbourne - Hastings - Ashford - Dover!

 

[Alex C.]

Its the route suggested by webtis based systems - it's difficult to make it show that route, most are more direct via tonbridge and include the bus but for certain times of the day it seems happy to give you the 5 change route I had.

As it happens, I didn't get to test it - and it would appear that all services next week are showing as via Tonbridge so I won't be able to!

But that does lead onto a second question - if i had booked it, with the itinerary given to me by the VTEC site, but the ticket had printed with "route Polegate/Edenbridge" on it, which is the correct determiner of validity - the itinerary or the printed ticket?

 

[MikeWh]

But that does lead onto a second question - if i had booked it, with the itinerary given to me by the VTEC site, but the ticket had printed with "route Polegate/Edenbridge" on it, which is the correct determiner of validity - the itinerary or the printed ticket?

Portsmouth to Dover Priory routeings are:

+Any Permitted
Not via London
Via Barnham

You wouldn't get the via Polegate/Edenbridge on that ticket.

 

[embers25]

I think this may be an example that "breaks" the Routeing Guide...ATOC have previously stated that, where a ticket has an explicit geographical route, you work out routes from the origin to that routeing point, then from there to the destination.

In this case, Barnham is an "associated station" rather than a routeing point, with RPs of Ford Group (Ford and Littlehampton) and Havant...Oops.

Logically, we should do fares checks based on a Portsmouth - Barnham journey and a Barnham - Dover journey, which gives us the following:

Portsmouth Stns - Barnham Anytime Day Single (SDS) is £10.60
Ford - Portsmouth Stns SDS is £10.80
Littlehampton - Portsmouth Stns SDS is £11.60
Havant - Portsmouth Stns SDS is £4.30

Therefore, Havant is the only appropriate routeing point for Portsmouth - Barnham.

Looking at Barnham - Dover Priory:

Barnham - Dover Priory SDS routed Not Via London (that being the closest fare to that for the through journey from Portsmouth) is £21.20
Ford - Dover Priory SDS routed Not Via London is £21.20
Littlehampton - Dover Priory SDS routed Not Via London is £21.20
Havant - Dover Priory SDS routed via Barnham is £21.20

Whilst Havant meets the fares check, it gets ruled out as it could only be used by doubling back, leaving Ford Group as the only appropriate routeing point.

Permitted routes between Portsmouth and Havant can be found on map CW which, unsurprisingly, just shows the direct route.

Permitted routes between Ford Group and Dover Priory can be found on maps CW+KA, CW+RA, LB+DE, LB+FA, LB+FC, LB+RA, LP+AR, SC+DE, SC+FA, SC+FC, SC+RA an SN+VB+AR.

But, if we look at the journey as a whole, Portsmouth is a group routeing point and Dover Priory is a routeing point, so no fares check would be needed.

Permitted routes between Portsmouth Group and Dover Priory (not via London) can be found on maps CW+KA, CW+RA, LP+AR, PD+DE, PD+FA, PD+FC, PD+RA and SN+VB+AR.

Answers on a postcard as to why CW on its own isn't shown as valid, given it features Portsmouth - Brighton - Eastbourne - Hastings - Ashford - Dover!

Simples!

 

[paul1609]

Portsmouth to Dover Priory routeings are:

+Any Permitted
Not via London
Via Barnham

You wouldn't get the via Polegate/Edenbridge on that ticket.

Ive never bought a ticket to Dover but trust me an awful lot of these tickets tell you that you are buying a route Barnham ticket but what is actually printed out is route Polegate/ Edenbridge

 

[Kentish Paul]

Ive never bought a ticket to Dover but trust me an awful lot of these tickets tell you that you are buying a route Barnham ticket but what is actually printed out is route Polegate/ Edenbridge

Just checked a previous Ashford Intl to Dorchester Stns Off peak return ticket (07/05/15) and it states Route : Via Barnham. Not bad at £19.75 with Senior railcard.