price of a hst rake

[londonboi]

Just read richard bransons autobiography and he is a real inspiriation

Got me thinking

How much would it cost to purchase a HST rake complete with engines and coaches.

I am surprised no one has took on a challenge to run a low cost rail company along the lines of like ryanair,easyjet

You could run a low cost route from london to glasgow stopping at principle stations along the route with low cost flat fares to encourage people onto the railways.

Just a though what's anyones opinions on this

 

[Cherry_Picker]

Just pulling numbers out of the air, you are looking at over half a million pounds per coach (probably closer to a million) and track access charges of 30p per coach per mile for the power cars and 6 or 7p per coach per mile for the Mark 3's. Then you will probably be left with crappy paths once all the ToCs and FoCs had taken the ones they wanted. Open access is not an easy business to make work.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I would say the hardest part of an OAO is actually finding a route that will pay for itself and not extract too much revenue from the TOCs. Without this it doesn't matter what paths you can get or what stock you have, you won't be allowed to run the service.

 

[jopsuk]

It of course doesn't help that they're all in use. The price of something that isn't for sale is much harder to calculate...

 

[Yew]

Unfortunately in our privatised railway where competition is supposed to assisdt getting the best deal for the customer, competition is frowned upon as it increases public subsidy.

 

[BestWestern]

Just pulling numbers out of the air, you are looking at over half a million pounds per coach (probably closer to a million) and track access charges of 30p per coach per mile for the power cars and 6 or 7p per coach per mile for the Mark 3's. Then you will probably be left with crappy paths once all the ToCs and FoCs had taken the ones they wanted. Open access is not an easy business to make work.

Surely a MK3 isn't worth half a mil?! I mean, they might be if you approached a TOC who use them every day and wanted to buy their front line fleet, as they'd be in a bit of a predicament afterwards, but on the open market it'd be far less than that I'd have thought?

 

[LexyBoy]

Would an OAO running a well-used route (e.g. London-Glasgow as in the OP), but taking a long time to do it, still be considered "primarily abstractive"? Let's say it was routed via the MML and S&C, taking 7 hours versus Virgin's 4.5?

There may be routes where a slower, cheaper rail service could compete with coaches & cars, but not with the primary operator. Possibly not ones where there would be enough custom to make it viable though.

competition is frowned upon as it increases public subsidy.

Does it though?
http://www.cps.org.uk/publications/reports/rail-s-second-chance/
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Surely a MK3 isn't worth half a mil?! I mean, they might be if you approached a TOC who use them every day and wanted to buy their front line fleet, as they'd be in a bit of a predicament afterwards, but on the open market it'd be far less than that I'd have thought?

*picks up back of envelope*

You'd be buying them off a ROSCO presumably. I don't know what it costs to lease a Mk 3 coach, but lets say it's less than half that of a 390 coach (which I think is around £32k). At £10k/month, and with (say) 10 years life in them, the ROSCO would be anticipating £1.2 million revenue from them, so those figures look reasonable to me.

 

[jopsuk]

Other issues: a single train would not suffice- you need a fleet of four or more, with one of those being spare, it seems, before you can really consider having a sensible operation.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Things only cost what buyers are prepared to pay for them and what the owner is prepared to accept, and at the moment the coaches and power cars are worth more to the ROSCOs as the TOCs are forced to use them, but in, say, ten years time, they might not be worth as much to the ROSCOs.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

First Group bought up nearly all the spare Mk3 coaches/HST power cars in a smart move about 5 years ago.
These then formed the basis for the expanded high-density FGW HST services.
As a result you won't be able to buy an HST rake until one of the TOCs stops using them - maybe 2017 when ICGW gets its first IEPs.
GA might release its Mk3 sets at around the same time if they go for new stock.
You will then have very old/tired stock to maintain.

The DB Schenker corporate train is going begging though.
You'd need some locos to go with it.

 

[londonboi]

Was just a thought I had not saying I'm going to do it (yet)

Some good information there though

Were do you buy stock from though?

 

[ainsworth74]

Either contact a manufacture such as Siemens or Bombardier if you want new build or contact one of the ROSCOs like Porterbrook, Angel or Eversholt if you're intension is to either buy or lease existing rolling stock (though they might also be able to help you procure new stock).

 

[DarloRich]

Just read richard bransons autobiography and he is a real inspiriation

Got me thinking

How much would it cost to purchase a HST rake complete with engines and coaches.

I am surprised no one has took on a challenge to run a low cost rail company along the lines of like ryanair,easyjet

You could run a low cost route from london to glasgow stopping at principle stations along the route with low cost flat fares to encourage people onto the railways.

Just a though what's anyones opinions on this

Well you need an operators license, a shed load of cash to buy the things, some staff and some paths to run your trains up the busiest railway line in Europe which is already full almost to beyond bursting point. Other than that crack on.

PS also why bother. Why offer cut price service when people will pay so much more to travel and the government will pay you to run a service?

 

[The Ham]

Just pulling numbers out of the air, you are looking at over half a million pounds per coach (probably closer to a million) and track access charges of 30p per coach per mile for the power cars and 6 or 7p per coach per mile for the Mark 3's. Then you will probably be left with crappy paths once all the ToCs and FoCs had taken the ones they wanted. Open access is not an easy business to make work.

Fairly close, if you were being really pedantic the actual CP4 track access charges for the Class 43's are 28.18 pence per mile (remembering you need to allow for two of them per set) whilst each mark 3 is 6.53 pence per mile.

If you want the full details :
http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pdf/cp4-pl-track_usage_181208.pdf

 

[The Planner]

The DB Schenker corporate train is going begging though.
You'd need some locos to go with it.

And seats once you stripped out the beds, board room and auditorium bit, it has no proper seating.

 

[The Ham]

In terms of looking to run a new service it is cheaper to use voyagers in track access charges than HST's. Even supper Voyagers work out at basicly the same track access cost for a 9 coach train compared with a HST of 8+2.

Given XC will not longer be ties to their voyagers at about the same time as the HST's come available I wouldn't be surprised if both were potential stock for such a service as is being suggested.

 

[1e10]

Just out of interest - you all seem to discuss having to purchase trains from existing owners. Are there not manufacturers out there who build them upon request?

 

[LexyBoy]

Just out of interest - you all seem to discuss having to purchase trains from existing owners. Are there not manufacturers out there who build them upon request?

Yes - ainsworth74 mentioned Siemens and Bombardier. You could also ask Hitachi to knock a few 395s up if you fancied that.

You originally asked about HSTs though. Nobody is going to build a new HST.

 

[1e10]

Yes - ainsworth74 mentioned Siemens and Bombardier. You could also ask Hitachi to knock a few 395s up if you fancied that.

You originally asked about HSTs though. Nobody is going to build a new HST.

Thank you for your reply.

Can anyone explain how train ownership works? For example - does XC own their trains or do they lease them? Are they committed to any contractual agreements which say they must hand their trains over to another operator if asked too or if their franchise ends?

 

[D365]

Yes - ainsworth74 mentioned Siemens and Bombardier. You could also ask Hitachi to knock a few 395s up if you fancied that.

You originally asked about HSTs though. Nobody is going to build a new HST.

Obviously not, the OP didn't ask for new-build HSTs nor did he ask whether it would be possible to today - that would be neigh-impossible, and if at all, very costly!

I believe private operators do not have to follow EU regulation on procurement of rolling stock, so one could just go to a trainbuilder, ask for some trains, hand over the cash and bingo, you're sorted! (Or at least, your rolling stock is. It's immobile until you can get the rest of your business together.)

 

[HSTEd]

Lets say you go for a slow Anglo-Scottish service that went after the coach market.

Ten car Class 444 would set you back £15m apiece.
Need multiple sets.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....Can anyone explain how train ownership works? For example - does XC own their trains or do they lease them? Are they committed to any contractual agreements which say they must hand their trains over to another operator if asked too or if their franchise ends?

Pretty much anything built after 1996 is leased through a ROSCO, TOCs don't own any stock, it is leased (with the possible exception of some FGW HSTs, not sure what agreement they have in place though). Freight companies own some stock, but generally speaking only that which was built by BR (with the exception the 325s which are owned by Royal Mail).

When franchises end, the stock stays with the franchise.

 

[jopsuk]

the very existence of the ROSCOs in the privatised structure is to ensure that "but we own the stock" isn't a negotiating chip in franchise renewal.

 

[route:oxford]

the very existence of the ROSCOs in the privatised structure is to ensure that "but we own the stock" isn't a negotiating chip in franchise renewal.

Sort of...

Not entirely sure what will happen when First hand the keys back of the FGW franchise to DOR. I'd say thay have a reasonable negotiation position there for leasing their privately owned HST sets to DOR.

Unless the government do a compulsory purchase order...

 

[OuterDistant]

In this Railwatch clip from 1989, Malcolm McKeag says "just over £300,000 a set, and a sum not unadjacent to £4 million for a complete train", but - I don't understand what the difference is! :-?

 

[1e10]

Are they leased by the TOCs because they prefer this business model or because they're forced to lease them because they're not aloud to own them?

 

[Cherry_Picker]

In this Railwatch clip from 1989, Malcolm McKeag says "just over £300,000 a set, and a sum not unadjacent to £4 million for a complete train", but - I don't understand what the difference is! :-?

I think he fluffed his lines. £300k a coach, £4m for a train.
On all trains coaches will be different prices depending on what they contain, ie one with a toilet will be more than one without, a driving cab will increase the cost, I presume some kind of kitchen area will too. On a HST you have two locomotives per rake too. Trains are not cheap.

 

[jopsuk]

Are they leased by the TOCs because they prefer this business model or because they're forced to lease them because they're not aloud to own them?

Barring the odd anomaly of FGW owning some, contractually they're obliged to use the rolling stock assigned by the DfT basically. They can fund new stock in partnerships with the ROSCOs and DfT.

 

[daikilo]

The original question was related to the success of e.g. Ryanair and easyJet. The former has built a model based on flying between remote airports (e.g. London to Glasgow from Watford to Motherwell) and the latter on closer -in airports.

Neither has any significant constraints on airport take-off an landing slots and even less on airspace.

The problem with UK Rail is that either the lines are full or simply don't exist between departure and destination points. Example: If Ryanrail found a case to operate from e.g Motherwell to Church Fenton, they could not depart and rail in a straight line but would need to be given/acquire routing slots. It possibly would be the same slots as e.g. G Central to Leeds, hence the cost advantage would disappear as probably the pinch points are on the route.

That said, I laud the efforts of e.g. London Midland to offer a lower comfort, lower cost, slower speed choice on identical routings. This for me is the Ryan effect on rail.

 

[jopsuk]

Interestingly, having built various "interchange" stations on LGV, SNCF are starting to run "budget" no-frills TGV services between them, using a special fleet of Duplex stock.

They are of course in competition with themselves.